Almost Canadian

I can't argue with that.

DaveLovesDee

It's clear that as long as the UK is no longer a member of the EU after a certain point in time, that the referendum result will have been respected. The referendum question didn't state deal or no deal, just Leave or Remain.

It's also clear that many who were entitled to vote in the referendum, either through not receiving ballot papers in time or at all, or because they weren't interested enough to change the status quo.

Parliament's duty is to consider the best interests of the UK, over and above the result of an advisory referendum, no matter who states that the will of the people would be respected.

And 52%-48% wasn't going to be good enough for Farage if the result had gone to Leave. He called it 'unfinished business'.

Shard

We hear people who voted leave because "Europe makes all our laws" or "we have too many African/ME immigrants" or "they want to shut down our army". Really misinformed incorrect stuff. Their reasoning is wrong simple as that. If you're willing to place your opinion on the same level as someone ignorant of the facts, that is your perogative.

Jingsamichty

I voted Remain, I am an internationalist, I despise nationalism. The result of the referendum bitterly disappointed me at the time and it still does to this day.

The parliamentarians who have fought tooth and nail to minimise the damage that this referendum result will cause to the UK are, in my opinion, national heroes. They have worked tirelessly in the face of terrible, dreadful abuse by certain sections of the media and the populace. For what? For the best interests of the UK as a whole, not just pandering to the lazy and ignorant lie that it's "what the people really want".

But part of me wants the Leavers to realise the fruits of their labours. Part of me wants to be in a position to say "I told you so". I even saw a Daily Mail headline last year, I think, that screamed "Now the EU wants to charge Brits to go on holiday!" - yes, you voted to end freedom of movement, that works both ways, Alf Garnett.

That's my dilemma... how often do you try to reason with a toddler that pulling the cat's tail is a dumb idea before you let him find out the truth for himself?

Shard

There definitely seems to be a fault line between the internationalists and nationalists. I've met Brits living in France and Germany that still have a 1940s mentality, and nothing but disdain for Europeans. Plenty on this side of the Channel too. It's very unfortunate that we have a press that stoke these resentments and of course, BoJo was (and is) very much part of that breed. I think that's a core problem with this debate, that it strikes at personal identity. Remainers are able to deal with a layered identity, but Leavers want to cling on to the exceptionalism of being British. Prior to the referendum I thought that as a nation we had moved on from that, but apparently not.

It's hard to see how the country moves on as whatever happens half of it will be disatisfied. Leavers will cry foul if we don't leave; Remainers will bemoan the diminished opportunity if we do.

Jingsamichty

The fundamental problem is that we, the electorate, continue to choose representatives who don't actually have the best interests of the country at heart. We elect too many single-issue parties, too many charming spivs, too many snake oil salesmen, too many out-of-touch aristos.

The rest of it - the media, political spinners, political spammers - is all just the support mechanism for those attempts to keep us voting for one vested interest or another.

BristolUK

I have that too. Of course the value of my UK pension(s) will go down - every time Brexit moves closer the £ falls and every time it's delayed the £ recovers - though not to the level it was prior to the referendum. But I get a certain amount of protection in Canada in that my OAS will go up in the event of other income falling.

So it's easier for me to say serves you silly buggers right. But I would love to be able to say that to one of my brothers. Silly bugger.

DaveLovesDee

I think some of the people we elect do have the best intentions of the UK at heart, and some others also start out that way but either become like those in it for themselves or they get frustrated with the system and don't bother standing again.

The system needs to change. I accept that political parties will never go away in my lifetime, but I believe that the best way would be to elect every MP as an Independent through PR (STV, or a combination of). Change the layout of the HoC from a battle formation to a circular one where MPs need to work together instead of an us v them mentality, Such a layout works in the Welsh Senedd and in the EU Parliament, why not in Westminster

The PM should be elected separately, and their Cabinet Ministers approved by a majority vote of MPs, much like the EU Parliament approves (or not) EU Commissioners and EU department Presidents.

Once we've changed the HoC, then we'll start on the HoL, which actually does it's job well considering the brickbats it gets from the media and public.

dave_j

Twas always thus and is alive and kicking in the EU where each nation state seeks to ensure that it's national interest remains uppermost in EU decision making.
Nothing wrong with that, but arguments that suggest Leavers are nationalist demons whereas Remainers support the utopian ideal are simplistic to suggest the least.
A recent example of utopian action saw the Greek nation put to the sword to save German banks and of course there's the old chestnut of distorted support for french farmers.
The idea that the EU is some benevolent entity existing for the benefit of all doesn't live comfortably with the truth.
I don't mind the EU doing their utmost to stop the UK from leaving the club, what I find difficult, and it's exemplified by posts here, that anyone supporting the Leave campaign must somehow be saved from themselves. Those posters protest too much methinks.

Shard

Not anyone, just some of the people.

What do you suggest in this scenario Dave, the French decide they're a bit tired of chasing after North African economic migrants seeking to leave the EU and dismantle their camps. The trickle of boat migrants we are now receiving turns into a flood. Britain appeals to France/EU to control their borders, but they say it's not their problem. How should Britain react?

Almost Canadian

Remind them of their obligations under international law, unless, of course, the argument will be that they managed to make it from Africa or somewhere in the Americas.

Shard

And what would those obligations be?

jimf

Novocastrian

Yes.

Shard

You've never heard a leave voter claim that Europe makes all our laws? Did you not take any taxis?! Racist comments are harder to come by, but they are there, coded in one way or another. Definitely heard comments about armies and Turks, even from friends. It's all in the Daily Express anyway, it would be surprising if readers did not pick up on some of it. I think many remainers are sick to the back teeth of having to put up with nonsense arguments from a proportion of the leave camp.