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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553490)
So where do hispanics, asians, east indians, cree, navajo etc fit in that system?????
Hispanics are Hispanics. Asians, in the US sense, are Asians. People from the Indian sub-continent are not (yet) important in US politics. But then you know this. The really important identifiable groups are whites, blacks, Jews and Hispanics. Obama's the candidate because he's black, he loses the Democrats some Jewish and Hispanic votes but may retain the black vote and expand the white one. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 6553431)
That might not be political correctness. It used to annoy me that my kids would send me to pick up their friends from crowded places describing them only as "the tall girl" or similar rather than "the tall black girl" but eventually I came to realise that they've always been surrounded by people of various colours and they just don't notice it. Colour is not an identifying feature to them.
I understand what you are saying though and it does need to be taught to the new generation but taring everybody a racist because they use race as a description just isn't fair...Much like if i said 'that fat woman' it may not be nice and there are better ways of saying it but it is true none the less. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553490)
My original point was (and still is) that we all make judgements based on appearances and thus far MMC, Iain and yourself are all backing me up.
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by livermanl
(Post 6553516)
But if you had to find that same girl as a police officer because either she is a criminal or a target of a criminal then the use of the word 'black' may or may not depending on where you are at that time eliminate so many people from your search. Would this mean that all police officers are racist because they need to be quick?
On point, the police here are not allowed to describe a suspect by colour, I expect they do so amongst themselves but I've no way of knowing if that helps them or not. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 6553519)
I'm not backing you up in the sense of saying that I judge people by their colour.
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553547)
Ah, but you are 'judging' his heritage and racial designation by appearance. (and yes self-identification I will concede)
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553490)
My original point was (and still is) that we all make judgements based on appearances and thus far MMC, Iain and yourself are all backing me up.
You might be doing that, I certainly am not. "Black" in this sense is simply and adjective that describes what he looks like, not what he is capable of, or anything else about him other than his appearance. [on edit] ^^^What he said! |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553579)
Now you are offending me. How am I making any sort of judgement based on his appearance?
You might be doing that, I certainly am not. "Black" in this sense is simply and adjective that describes what he looks like, not what he is capable of, or anything else about him other than his appearance. [on edit] ^^^What he said! I merely meant that 'we' are 'allowing' people to be labelled based on appearance. To extend my earlier argument with reference to West Indians (talking area of birth only here) I would suggest that there are few people in the world who could claim to be 100% of one 'nation'. Therefore why do we need to label based on 'race'. It is not a matter of being PC it is a matter of accepting 'humanity' and moral values as more relevant than the colour of your skin, the church you worship in and the way you vote. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 6553545)
On point, the police here are not allowed to describe a suspect by colour, I expect they do so amongst themselves but I've no way of knowing if that helps them or not.
If the cops aren't allowed to use skin colour in this manner, then I suggest that someone needs to be told to stop being so damned hyper-sensitive. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 6553633)
I hope you're exaggerating, dbd33. A person's skin colour is a primary piece of identification, in exactly the same manner as gender, height, build, hair colour. No more, no less.
If the cops aren't allowed to use skin colour in this manner, then I suggest that someone needs to be told to stop being so damned hyper-sensitive. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
I merely meant that 'we' are 'allowing' people to be labelled based on appearance.
If I were purple with pink spots, it would be reasonable if asked, to describe me as a purple guy with the pink spots. Its just not reasonable to say, "Hey, all those purple guys with pink spots are way smarter than the rest of you...." Or "Hey, all those purple guys with pink spots spend way too much time dogging off work in that internet forum" See the difference? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 6553633)
I hope you're exaggerating, dbd33. A person's skin colour is a primary piece of identification, in exactly the same manner as gender, height, build, hair colour. No more, no less.
If the cops aren't allowed to use skin colour in this manner, then I suggest that someone needs to be told to stop being so damned hyper-sensitive. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 6553633)
I hope you're exaggerating, dbd33. A person's skin colour is a primary piece of identification, in exactly the same manner as gender, height, build, hair colour. No more, no less.
If the cops aren't allowed to use skin colour in this manner, then I suggest that someone needs to be told to stop being so damned hyper-sensitive. On edit, the current practise is that the police do include colour in suspect descriptions but do not keep statistics by race. The newspapers edit race out of suspect descriptions, whether by policy or law I don't know. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553648)
Its an adjective, thats all. Its not a "label" in the sense that all the Levis jeans are the same, or all bottles of "Blue" taste the same.
If I were purple with pink spots, it would be reasonable if asked, to describe me as a purple guy with the pink spots. Its just not reasonable to say, Hey, all those purple guys with pink spots are way smarter than the rest of you...." Or "Hey, all those purple guys with pink spots spend way too much time dogging off work in that internet forum" See the difference? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553663)
Oh Yes I see the difference, unfortunately many dont (as we are all aware). eg ALL brits have 'cute' accents. (sorry I'm not gonna offend anyone else:p).
Unfortunately that does seem to be the basis of a lot of political correctness, and therein lies the problem. Rather than build a society that admires intelligence and beauty and tolerance and tries to drag the rest of the world up to that level, we generate a culture that accommodates the lowest basest standards, and then we stand back and wonder why more and more people are dragged down to that level:curse: |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553684)
So we should all dumb down and pander to the lowest common denominator?
Unfortunately that does seem to be the basis of a lot of political correctness, and therein lies the problem. Rather than build a society that admires intelligence and beauty and tollerance and tries to drag the rest of the world up to that level, we generate a culture that accommodates the lowest basest standards, and then we stand back and wonder why more and more people are dragged down to that level:curse: But there's only one "l" in "tolerance." Tut tut. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553684)
So we should all dumb down and pander to the lowest common denominator?
Unfortunately that does seem to be the basis of a lot of political correctness, and therein lies the problem. Rather than build a society that admires intelligence and beauty and tolerance and tries to drag the rest of the world up to that level, we generate a culture that accommodates the lowest basest standards, and then we stand back and wonder why more and more people are dragged down to that level:curse: |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553684)
So we should all dumb down and pander to the lowest common denominator?
Unfortunately that does seem to be the basis of a lot of political correctness, and therein lies the problem. Rather than build a society that admires intelligence and beauty and tolerance and tries to drag the rest of the world up to that level, we generate a culture that accommodates the lowest basest standards, and then we stand back and wonder why more and more people are dragged down to that level:curse: There is one kind of charity common enough among us… It is that patchwork philanthropy which clothes the ragged, feeds the poor, and heals the sick. I am far from decrying the noble spirit which seeks to help a poor or suffering fellow being… [However] what advances a nation or a community is not so much to prop up its weakest and most helpless members, but to lift up the best and the most gifted, so as to make them of the greatest service to the country. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553732)
Sorry Iain, I think I'm missing your point:confused:
So we have to dumb down our use of a perfectly fine english adjective, in order to accommodate their prejudice. And whats worse, if they are bigoted, then they will associate his appearance with negative connotations no matter how we choose to describe him, and the word "black" is left in the command of the Neanderthals and doesn't get to be freely associated with someone who by most accounts is an outstanding man.... And society as a whole gets a little bit dumber. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Let's be clear... this is not only about race. The same situation occurs when referring to fat people, bald people, disabled people... there is an increasing tendency to avoid any suggestion that we have noticed any obvious physical differences.
I repeat my point that noticing obvious physical differences is not the same thing as equating them with any pejorative connotations, nor should it be. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553783)
My point is that you seem to be arguing that we, as intelligent people, should not describe a man who is dark skinned, as "black", because other, more bigoted people, will make assumptions about him based on that description.
So we have to dumb down our use of a perfectly fine english adjective, in order to accommodate their prejudice. And whats worse, if they are bigoted, then they will associate his appearance with negative connotations no matter how we choose to describe him, and the word "black" is left in the command of the Neanderthals and doesn't get to be freely associated with someone who by most accounts is an outstanding man.... And society as a whole gets a little bit dumber. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 6553799)
Let's be clear... this is not only about race. The same situation occurs when referring to fat people, bald people, disabled people... there is an increasing tendency to avoid any suggestion that we have noticed any obvious physical differences.
I repeat my point that noticing obvious physical differences is not the same thing as equating them with any pejorative connotations, nor should it be. No the answer is not Dave or unlucky either. But if you were chatting about "him" to explain who he was at a party as he had the most amazing brain power and was really interesting....how do you describe him so that it is clear who "one" is referring to? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Harrypottermouse
(Post 6553838)
So what do we call the man who is 40+, over weight, bald, wears glasses, has a speech impediment, a limp, and is of non Caucasian origin?
No the answer is not Dave or unlucky either. But if you were chatting about "him" to explain who he was at a party as he had the most amazing brain power and was really interesting....how do you describe him so that it is clear who "one" is referring to? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Butch Cassidy
(Post 6553802)
I disagree with the use of the words 'black' 'hispanic' 'asian' etc only when used in order to 'promote' or 'demote'.
Bigoted people will promote or demote anyway based on their perception of a person, it doesnt need someone else to use a particular word for that to happen. All those words are simply adjectives to describe a persons appearance. Anything that people want to add to that in there own mind is not the responsibility of the person using that word...and you are right, there is a place for education / whateveryouwanttocallit in those circumstances. I agree though that there are certainly times when the addition of an adjective is not required and its done precisely to influence peoples perception. For example, it really is no more necessary to describe Obama as the "Black Presidential Candidate" in a newspaper article than it is to describe McCain as the "White Presidential Candidate", but if you ask me "what does he look like?" then I'm not going to stop at "tall" for the sake of political correctness. Not using adjectives where they rightly apply is just dumbing down, and we are all the poorer for that. Its the same thing as saying you cant fly a St Georges cross in the UK because its become a racist symbol. If all the proud multicultural, tolerant Englishmen flew it, then it wouldnt have been possible for it to have been hijacked by the BNP...If you are scared to use words like black or asian or hispanic, then it hands control of them over to the people who want them to have a negative connotation, so the mindless idiots win once again. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Harrypottermouse
(Post 6553838)
So what do we call the man who is 40+, over weight, bald, wears glasses, has a speech impediment, a limp, and is of non Caucasian origin?
No the answer is not Dave or unlucky either. But if you were chatting about "him" to explain who he was at a party as he had the most amazing brain power and was really interesting....how do you describe him so that it is clear who "one" is referring to? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Harrypottermouse
(Post 6553838)
So what do we call the man who is 40+, over weight, bald, wears glasses, has a speech impediment, a limp, and is of non Caucasian origin?
No the answer is not Dave or unlucky either. But if you were chatting about "him" to explain who he was at a party as he had the most amazing brain power and was really interesting....how do you describe him so that it is clear who "one" is referring to? If you're trying to describe soemone so that others may be able to recognise him, I'm afraid that referring to his brain power or his interesting-ness really isn't going to help at all. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Oakvillian
(Post 6553871)
It'd depend who I was talking to. If it was someone I knew well and was confident understood the absence of prejudice in my description, I'd probably say "you know, Dave, the fat, bald, speccy, gimpy limpy black guy." Or, on reflection, I might say "you know, Dave, my black Doppelgänger"
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553891)
I agree though that there are certainly times when the addition of an adjective is not required and its done precisely to influence peoples perception. For example, it really is no more necessary to describe Obama as the "Black Presidential Candidate" in a newspaper article then it is to describe McCain as the "White Presidential Candidate", but if you ask me "what does he look like?" then I'm not going to stop at "tall" for the sake of political correctness. Not using adjectives where they rightly apply is just dumbing down, and we are all the poorer for that. Its the same thing as saying you cant fly a St Georges cross in the UK because its become a racist symbol. If all the proud multicultural, tolerant Englishmen flew it, then it wouldnt have been possible for it to have been hijacked by the BNP...If you are scared to use words like black or asian or hispanic, then it hands control of them over to the people who want them to have a negative connotation, so the mindless idiots win once again. I really feel that we are coming to the same result from different sides. I wont even post an 'opposing argument' to the above cos to be honest there isnt one ;). |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6553891)
Not using adjectives where they rightly apply is just dumbing down, and we are all the poorer for that.
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 6553913)
Your description is perfectly adequte... all good descriptions of physical characteristics - except one. I doubt if many people have ever referred to someone as "of non-caucasion origin" in a real-life, casual description. What's wrong with saying Chinese, or Indian, or Mexican, or black, or Hispanic. Call a spade a spade FFS, not "a manual horticultural utensil with a strong work ethic and a good sense of humour".
If you're trying to describe soemone so that others may be able to recognise him, I'm afraid that referring to his brain power or his interesting-ness really isn't going to help at all. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
And the faux pas from the lady who began it all????
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
indeed, back when the very first days of the kill the smoker campaign started, when they put 2 pounds tax per pack.
I said at this time you better be very careful what you ask for as the government will take it to the extreme... It wasn't the fact that they were killing smoking but as i said at the time what would be next. What came next was even more taxes on ciggerettes, which then came all those health notices, which eventually led to the age lifting to 18 (good idea), which then became illegal to do in any building (except prisons...), which then came the idea to not display all those health warnings and locking them in a cupboard...Meanwhile the government have raised the taxes on alcohol now they are also talking of a 'fat tax'. I pose one other question now after fat people, smokers and drinkers what is the next group to suffer? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by livermanl
(Post 6554347)
I pose one other question now after fat people, smokers and drinkers what is the next group to suffer?
SUV owners? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Why shouldn't society interject to protect people from themselves? It wont work in all cases, but its worth it if it works in some cases.
Smoking kills people. Just this week one of my lead hands was diagnosed with Lung Cancer...she was a smoker. I say was because strangely she has quit cold turkey after years and years of never being able to do it. Drinking isnt all that good for you...never mind the health effect, what about the effect on society of the binge drinking in the UK...DO you need a teenager to throw up on your shoes to drive that one home? SUVs? Give me a break. Are we still in denial about the effect of CO2 emissions on global warming? A fat tax? Why not? God knows what the long term effects of all the obese and overweight people is going to be on society. There is a dividing line between trying to influencing peoples choices, and political correctness run rampant. Sometimes its a thin one, but there is a distinction. |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 6549074)
Oak - at school we all called each other JOey - as in Joey Deacon, the mentally disabled (oh god can you say that now?) who was given a new house, from Blue Peter.
MMC - yellow zipper head?? ok I can see the yellow connotations - but zipper head??? did you see the news headline last week that local Uk Councils are not aloowed to say "brain storming" any more as it is offensive to epilieptics. National Epiliepsy society said - "No its not!" tis a mad mad world! It is a mad world, I was in Princes street Edinburgh last week, i asked for a "Black Man " from the ice cream vendor, and nearly got shot down in flames !!!! "It is a double chocolate wafer you know" came the reply. So i ended up just getting a 99 cone instead:unsure: But the uk has been going pc mad for some time, remember them taking the Gollywogs of the jam jars etc ? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by celtic warrior
(Post 6556743)
It is a mad world, I was in Princes street Edinburgh last week, i asked for a "Black Man " from the ice cream vendor, and nearly got shot down in flames !!!! "It is a double chocolate wafer you know" came the reply.
So i ended up just getting a 99 cone instead:unsure: But the uk has been going pc mad for some time, remember them taking the Gollywogs of the jam jars etc ? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 6556857)
I still have my Robinsons Gollywog badges!
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Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6556555)
Why shouldn't society interject to protect people from themselves? It wont work in all cases, but its worth it if it works in some cases.
Smoking kills people. Just this week one of my lead hands was diagnosed with Lung Cancer...she was a smoker. I say was because strangely she has quit cold turkey after years and years of never being able to do it. Drinking isnt all that good for you...never mind the health effect, what about the effect on society of the binge drinking in the UK...DO you need a teenager to throw up on your shoes to drive that one home? SUVs? Give me a break. Are we still in denial about the effect of CO2 emissions on global warming? A fat tax? Why not? God knows what the long term effects of all the obese and overweight people is going to be on society. There is a dividing line between trying to influencing peoples choices, and political correctness run rampant. Sometimes its a thin one, but there is a distinction. Smokers complain that one of the main reasons they smoke is stress...so making them poor and a hated part of society is going to relieve them of that stress? Fat people complain they eat because they are depressed...so making them poorer and even more hated by society is going to make them happier? I'm not defending SUV's... Drinking again should be discourage but it is as you said ...Should we all dumb down and pander to the lowest common denominator? I'm sure that there are very few people in the UK that can be claim to be 'non-drinkers' but i'm sure that the majority of drinkers can claim they are not 'binge drinkers'. So rather than costing every single drinker how about we pay people on welfare to fine the drunk and disorderly? Again Iain I don't disagree with the principle it is the method and the question what next? People who get caught insulting the government? People who protest against things like the war or groups like Fathers for justice? |
Re: PCness gone MAD?!!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 6556555)
Why shouldn't society interject to protect people from themselves? It wont work in all cases, but its worth it if it works in some cases.
Smoking kills people. Just this week one of my lead hands was diagnosed with Lung Cancer...she was a smoker. I say was because strangely she has quit cold turkey after years and years of never being able to do it. Drinking isnt all that good for you...never mind the health effect, what about the effect on society of the binge drinking in the UK...DO you need a teenager to throw up on your shoes to drive that one home? SUVs? Give me a break. Are we still in denial about the effect of CO2 emissions on global warming? A fat tax? Why not? God knows what the long term effects of all the obese and overweight people is going to be on society. There is a dividing line between trying to influencing peoples choices, and political correctness run rampant. Sometimes its a thin one, but there is a distinction. |
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