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Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Hawk13
(Post 11373148)
Interesting arguments but this one doesn't hold water. A "cleaner pay" - if I was a cleaner I'd be a bit insulted as everyone should pay their share as the amount you pay is based on your income. You can also liken it to someone who chooses to not have kids having to to pay school taxes period.
Whether a country chooses to pay for higher education is up to the people in that country. As you know, in Canada, we don't - pay that is. When considering whether it is appropriate to fund university fees via taxation (the student doesn't pay, all tax payers do), as currently occurs in Scotland for some people, as opposed to the student pays (the student pays a maximum amount, the taxpayers pay the difference), as currently occurs in England and Wales one simply needs to determine whether the costs should be borne by taxpayers alone, or whether the costs should be borne, in part, by the student. I funded all of my studies myself due to the fact that I attended University part time at a time when tuition fees were, for full time students, funded by the taxpayer. I didn't have access to the philosophy of pay a set amount each year depending upon income, I had to pay it all in full at the time of registration. I was not earning a high income at the time but I was able to do so. I believe that it is perfectly acceptable for students to have to fund part of their higher education, particularly if it is funded how I understand it is funded in England and Wales at this time - you pay it back when you can afford to do so. If you don't believe they should, why do you believe that? |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 11373090)
Who voted for the Scottish MPs then?
How will that change post independence? Do you believe, for example, that higher education should be paid for out of taxes paid by those that have little chance of attending such courses? For example, why should a cleaner pay, from their taxes, for someone's university tuition? What do you propose and how will that be more effective as, it seems to me, that the parties still require a critical mass to get something done or prevent something from being done? I have to defer to your greater knowledge here. As I have said above, I really don't care what happens as I believe that the electorate get what they deserve. Why have a Scottish parliament then, why not just delegate all such powers to local councils? I fully appreciate that, the larger an area an authority has to govern, the more likely it is that certain groups' interests will be overlooked. 2. It will change through a more proportional voting structure - e.g sort of like what currently occurs in the Scottish parliament. 3. Already been covered by Hawk. I believe in equality of opportunity. I think that a highly educated society is something to value and that if someone wishes to go to university they should be encouraged and have that opportunity. I believe that education should be a priority over 'defence', for instance. Or multi billion pound per year nuclear weapons. I know plenty of people at university who would not have attended if there had been excessive £9000 per year fees in place. By having these fees in place, it's effectively helping to lower social mobility. 4. Some form of voting which is more proportional. The Scottish parliament system is more effective, in my opinion, than Westminster. It is more proportional. It is still possible, if unlikely, to obtain a majority (e.g the SNP). I don't think a government should be in total control without a proper mandate, just because it 'gets things done faster'. 5. The rise of the SNP in Scotland has been remarkable. They aren't great, but they're far better than the alternatives. Why do you care so much about scottish independence anyway? I honestly wouldn't care if NI, for example, gained independence. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373249)
1. You seem to be spectacularly missing the point here. The government in power at Westminster was not voted for by Scotland. Not even remotely. The Tories got 1 seat. So how are they, as the government in power, accountable to the Scottish people?
2. It will change through a more proportional voting structure - e.g sort of like what currently occurs in the Scottish parliament. 3. Already been covered by Hawk. I believe in equality of opportunity. I think that a highly educated society is something to value and that if someone wishes to go to university they should be encouraged and have that opportunity. I believe that education should be a priority over 'defence', for instance. Or multi billion pound per year nuclear weapons. I know plenty of people at university who would not have attended if there had been excessive £9000 per year fees in place. By having these fees in place, it's effectively helping to lower social mobility. 4. Some form of voting which is more proportional. The Scottish parliament system is more effective, in my opinion, than Westminster. It is more proportional. It is still possible, if unlikely, to obtain a majority (e.g the SNP). I don't think a government should be in total control without a proper mandate, just because it 'gets things done faster'. 5. The rise of the SNP in Scotland has been remarkable. They aren't great, but they're far better than the alternatives. Why do you care so much about scottish independence anyway? I honestly wouldn't care if NI, for example, gained independence. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by jimf
(Post 11373276)
On point 4 there was a referendum on changing from the FPTP to an AV system. The SNP supported a yes vote together wth UKIP, welsh nationalists and Sinn Feinn etc. Labour sat on the fence and Conservatives supported a no vote. All parts of the UK voted to keep FPTP. It would seem on this issue the Conservatives have popular support accross the UK.
Turnout was also ridiculously low as well. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 11373196)
Of course the amount that one pays in taxes is determined by one's income. I am not disputing that. But...
When considering whether it is appropriate to fund university fees via taxation (the student doesn't pay, all tax payers do), as currently occurs in Scotland for some people, as opposed to the student pays (the student pays a maximum amount, the taxpayers pay the difference), as currently occurs in England and Wales one simply needs to determine whether the costs should be borne by taxpayers alone, or whether the costs should be borne, in part, by the student. I funded all of my studies myself due to the fact that I attended University part time at a time when tuition fees were, for full time students, funded by the taxpayer. I didn't have access to the philosophy of pay a set amount each year depending upon income, I had to pay it all in full at the time of registration. I was not earning a high income at the time but I was able to do so. I believe that it is perfectly acceptable for students to have to fund part of their higher education, particularly if it is funded how I understand it is funded in England and Wales at this time - you pay it back when you can afford to do so. If you don't believe they should, why do you believe that? I think mdizzle's point was (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) that "Scottish parliament currently has limited powers and has limited control over the funds" and if the majority of the Scottish people want to reduce students costs for higher education, independence will help move towards that goal. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373249)
1. You seem to be spectacularly missing the point here. The government in power at Westminster was not voted for by Scotland. Not even remotely. The Tories got 1 seat. So how are they, as the government in power, accountable to the Scottish people?
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373249)
2. It will change through a more proportional voting structure - e.g sort of like what currently occurs in the Scottish parliament.
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373249)
3. Already been covered by Hawk. I believe in equality of opportunity. I think that a highly educated society is something to value and that if someone wishes to go to university they should be encouraged and have that opportunity. I believe that education should be a priority over 'defence', for instance. Or multi billion pound per year nuclear weapons. I know plenty of people at university who would not have attended if there had been excessive £9000 per year fees in place. By having these fees in place, it's effectively helping to lower social mobility.
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373249)
4. Some form of voting which is more proportional. The Scottish parliament system is more effective, in my opinion, than Westminster. It is more proportional. It is still possible, if unlikely, to obtain a majority (e.g the SNP). I don't think a government should be in total control without a proper mandate, just because it 'gets things done faster'.
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373249)
5. The rise of the SNP in Scotland has been remarkable. They aren't great, but they're far better than the alternatives.
Why do you care so much about scottish independence anyway? I honestly wouldn't care if NI, for example, gained independence. I take it you are pro independence. As asked above, please confirm what you foresee will happen on the currency issue, if your side "wins" on the referendum. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by mdizzle
(Post 11373289)
I know. AV is shit though. I'm pretty sure it was a concession made by the conservatives to the Lib demos hat they could have a referendum on a more proportional system as they regularly got ****ed over by a lack of proportionality. However nobody wanted av at all, pretty sure the conservatives picked that system as they were still sticking to their part if the deal but also knew that nobody actually wanted that system. Something like that anyway, I just remember it being a total joke at the time.
Is AV very different to STV? |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 11373296)
I don't care. I thought I had made that clear. I hope that, once the will of the Scottish people is known, those that "lose" will lick their wounds accordingly and will let matters lie.
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Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Hawk13
(Post 11373314)
I always find it interesting people that say they "don't care" make these kind of statements - obviously, you do care.
Why should I care? I don't live in England anymore and the vote will have little bearing on my life at all. If I had continued to live in England, I wouldn't have cared either as I don't believe it would have affected my life there to any degree either. Personally, I think it is a storm in a teacup. A few in Scotland and the rest of the UK really give a shit one way or the other, most simply don't care. Out of interest, what do you think the turnout will be, as a general percentage? |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 11373319)
I haven't argued for either position so I honestly don't know what you are reading into that.
Why should I care? I don't live in England anymore and the vote will have little bearing on my life at all. If I had continued to live in England, I wouldn't have cared either as I don't believe it would have affected my life there to any degree either. Personally, I think it is a storm in a teacup. A few in Scotland and the rest of the UK really give a shit one way or the other, most simply don't care. Out of interest, what do you think the turnout will be, as a general percentage? Turnout - that's a good question. I'd hope that it would be higher than 60% but then by your "A few in Scotland and the rest of the UK really give a shit one way or the other, most simply don't care" statement, you should be able to enlighten me with your crystal ball. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Originally Posted by Hawk13
(Post 11373328)
Well if you can't get by rereading your statement, I guess you just don't get it.
OK. I believe that, whichever side "loses", they will need to lick their wounds and live with the result. Turnout - that's a good question. I'd hope that it would be higher than 60% but then by your "A few in Scotland and the rest of the UK really give a shit one way or the other, most simply don't care" statement, you should be able to enlighten me with your crystal ball. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
Doesn't care - spends his time debating the subject. Okkkkkkkkkkk
Turnout will be very high, much higher than for general elections. |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
The parliament in London represents the UK. Look at where the most people in the UK live and its no surprise that it seems biased towards England and the SE.
If a majority of Scots vote to leave the UK then they will have a truly representative administration, On the other hand if the majority of scotish residents choose to remain an integral part of the UK, then hopefully the minority who wish to be independent will respect that and accept that parliament represents the UK and that their friends and neighbours wish to remain part of the UK. Its not like Scotlands wishes are currently entirely unrepresented anyway, Currently the scotish parliament has powers over (quoting Wikipedia); agriculture fisheries and forestry economic development, education, environment food standards, health, home affairs courts, police and fire services, local government, sport and the arts, transport, training, tourism, research and statistics social work. To me that looks like it covers most of the basics of day to day living. In addition The Scottish Parliament has the ability to alter income tax in Scotland by up to 3 pence in the pound and the 2012 Act conferred further fiscal devolution including borrowing powers and some other unconnected matters such as setting speed limits and control of air guns. What they do not have a say in is abortion, broadcasting policy, civil service, common markets for UK goods and services, constitution, electricity, coal, oil, gas, nuclear energy, defence and national security, drug policy, employment, foreign policy and relations with Europe, most aspects of transport safety and regulation, National Lottery, protection of borders, social security and stability of UK's fiscal, economic and monetary system |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
I truly hope that the Scots will stay.
As the name of the UK says: "United Kingdom", and "united" means at least two parties, most notably the Union of the Crowns. To me the referendum is too much about Alex and his SNP, not of the long term implications to the country and it's people, - too much about one man, wanting to go down in history. The uncertainty of existing treaties, the currency, the future based around the oil is just to shaky for me. The word "British" or UK is not exclusive to "English", and can be equally "Scottish". Military and defense is one of the best in the UK, why give that up? |
Re: if the scots go, do you care?
English reject Alex Salmond's plan to share the pound - Telegraph
But the sovereign will of Alex knows what best for England........... |
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