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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 9441208)
Well I think that is a crass generalisation and a load of old clap trap- having come from south London with kids at a nice local church school and a decent grammar school and moved to to East Van (not the posh North, west or Kits) I have been suprised that most of the kids are a lot more polite , well behaved and able to hold a decent conversation with an adult than a lot of their old classmates in the UK .
They are disciplined, have ground rules and get punished for breaking them. I'd like to know where you feel it is particularly noticeable in Vancouver? undisiplined Vancouver is a bit like a cross between Desperate Housewives and Stepford Wives. Generalizations are usually true, despite have the odd exception. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9441236)
I notice it all the time, and am only stating my own observations. Vancouver has a reputation which I think it does not deserve. My point is that it's not really any better than anywhere else. However Vancouverites do seem to think they have the perfect life, raising perfect kids and a shining example to the rest of the world. What happened on Wednesday clearly and undeniably proved this myth to be bullshit. At least in places like South London, parents realise and admit their kids and their parenting are not perfect.
Vancouver is a bit like a cross between Desperate Housewives and Stepford Wives No your point before was that it was particularly noticeable in Vancouver and now you say it is not really better than any where else - so which one? YOu will always find people that think they have the perfect life - or project that, but look inside and there are always cracks. the only thing I have noticed that is the main difference between Canadian and in fact N Amercan in general) parenting and the brits is that here everything is awesome and there are awards for all and sundry - which is gonna be kick in the face when they get into the real world . |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Hmm and I forgot to add, I do not feel threatend when walking through the parks or streets here and there are groups of teens, they usually all will say hi or good evening, if I have the dogs with me they usually comment and want to play / stroke them . .in the Uk such meetings were met with a barrage of insults / sexual innuendo - not what you want from a spotty 15 year old whose mother is probably older than you any way!
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 9441208)
Well I think that is a crass generalisation and a load of old clap trap...
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 9441305)
Hmm and I forgot to add, I do not feel threatend when walking through the parks or streets here and there are groups of teens...in the Uk such meetings were met with a barrage of insults / sexual innuendo
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 9441305)
Hmm and I forgot to add, I do not feel threatend when walking through the parks or streets here and there are groups of teens, they usually all will say hi or good evening, if I have the dogs with me they usually comment and want to play / stroke them . .in the Uk such meetings were met with a barrage of insults / sexual innuendo - not what you want from a spotty 15 year old whose mother is probably older than you any way!
Regarding your comparison with London, it's a moot point because I was not saying kids are more polite in Britain at all. My point was about responsibility and consequences, and the fact that parents in Vancouver do seem to believe their parenting and kids are perfect. Scenes like Wednesday night would horrify most communities, but must have been a colossal blow to Vancouver as a direct result of this. Then of course the customary denial, i.e. "these aren't Vancouver people", to "this is a group of anarchists, probably not even Canadians". Of course. In fact I'm sure they are Bruin terrorists who were set up to burn down Vancouver wearing Canucks shirts, to add an extra kick in the nuts to the one received during the match. These were kids of parents who have probably congratulated themselves for being such amazing, wonderful parents. Now little Tyler and Brad are torching BMWs and looting Sears; the latter proving the point that they are not only little thugs, but also have zero taste. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by el_richo
(Post 9441313)
;)
Our local park in the uk was practically a no go area in the eve due to drunken teens, in the end the Council had to lock the park at dusk :( But even in the day time a I walked past you could guarantee there would always be some snide comment Thats my experience here and there so am not generalising it for the whole of the Uk and Canada but in response to CC's comment that ALL Vancouver kids were basically un parented! |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9441314)
Lack of consequences, discipline and responsibility is something that's particularly noticeable in Vancouver, as is the "I'm the perfect parent ... look at my brain dead kids, aren't they perfect?". Also the delusion of being superior to the rest of the world. So when I say it's no better than anywhere else, that's exactly what I mean. Not a contradiction at all.
Regarding your comparison with London, it's a moot point because I was not saying kids are more polite in Britain at all. My point was about responsibility and consequences, and the fact that parents in Vancouver do seem to believe their parenting and kids are perfect. Scenes like Wednesday night would horrify most communities, but must have been a colossal blow to Vancouver as a direct result of this. Then of course the customary denial, i.e. "these aren't Vancouver people", to "this is a group of anarchists, probably not even Canadians". Of course. In fact I'm sure they are Bruin terrorists who were set up to burn down Vancouver wearing Canucks shirts, to add an extra kick in the nuts to the one received during the match. These were kids of parents who have probably congratulated themselves for being such amazing, wonderful parents. Now little Tyler and Brad are torching BMWs and looting Sears; the latter proving the point that they are not only little thugs, but also have zero taste. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 9441321)
As I said before, where are these perfect parents with brain dead kids, cos they aint in East Van . .maybe people shouldnt diss the east side so much eh!
Although I cannot help but to agree with you about East Van. It is the part that the people who I'm referring to (snobs), look down their nose at. My realtor when I moved here, really aggressively encouraged me to not consider looking here. That was bad advice though as it is about the most pleasant, and exciting part of Vancouver, with more genuine, likeable and down to earth people. I think I made more friends since living in East Van, over a few months, than in the 7 years I've been in Vancouver area. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9441314)
Lack of consequences, discipline and responsibility is something that's particularly noticeable in Vancouver, as is the "I'm the perfect parent ... look at my brain dead kids, aren't they perfect?". Also the delusion of being superior to the rest of the world. So when I say it's no better than anywhere else, that's exactly what I mean. Not a contradiction at all.
Regarding your comparison with London, it's a moot point because I was not saying kids are more polite in Britain at all. My point was about responsibility and consequences, and the fact that parents in Vancouver do seem to believe their parenting and kids are perfect. Scenes like Wednesday night would horrify most communities, but must have been a colossal blow to Vancouver as a direct result of this. Then of course the customary denial, i.e. "these aren't Vancouver people", to "this is a group of anarchists, probably not even Canadians". Of course. In fact I'm sure they are Bruin terrorists who were set up to burn down Vancouver wearing Canucks shirts, to add an extra kick in the nuts to the one received during the match. These were kids of parents who have probably congratulated themselves for being such amazing, wonderful parents. Now little Tyler and Brad are torching BMWs and looting Sears; the latter proving the point that they are not only little thugs, but also have zero taste. Having said all that I thought London Mike had it spot on with his post. Just because a kid is nice 90% of the time doesn't mean that, given hormones, stupidity of youth and the right set of circumstances, that he/she can't be a complete twat in a riot as well. I suspect that's what happened on Wed night. But again, maybe I live in an alternate universe, no one I have spoken to thinks it's not locals. In fact one of my coworker's brothers was a looter.... |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9441330)
I think we're arguing two different points here. I'm talking about widespread lack of responsibility, not saying all kids are thugs. I AM, however, saying that there's every likelihood that the vandalism and violence on Wednesday, was home grown, and that must have been a shock to parents, who, in my opinion and experience here, are in delusion as a parent, and their kids seem to be brain dead. I was only in a park yesterday and one of my kids kicked off, and EVERYBODY stared at me instantly as if to say go sort it out. Rushing in the moment one of the kids is frustrated over something is fairly typical of this place. Kids will NEVER learn if all you do is intervene. They'll just grow up to take no personal responsibility, and end up doing something, like uhm, burning cars or looting Sears. It's the same with allergies. It seems that most kids here have a collection of food intolerances. Again this is no doubt to over-bearing, over-protective, holier than thou parents, rushing in to protect little Jay from the slightest impurity in the world, causing their immune system to be ineffective, and demanding that they spend the rest of their life in a protective bubble. I mean almost every kid seems to have some allergy or other, and these are down to parents destroying their immune system through being over-protective. Tantamount to child abuse, some might argue. But those same parents would look down their snout at someone letting their child's immune system develop.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9441330)
I think we're arguing two different points here. I'm talking about widespread lack of responsibility, not saying all kids are thugs. I AM, however, saying that there's every likelihood that the vandalism and violence on Wednesday, was home grown, and that must have been a shock to parents, who, in my opinion and experience here, are in delusion as a parent, and their kids seem to be brain dead. I was only in a park yesterday and one of my kids kicked off, and EVERYBODY stared at me instantly as if to say go sort it out. Rushing in the moment one of the kids is frustrated over something is fairly typical of this place. Kids will NEVER learn if all you do is intervene. They'll just grow up to take no personal responsibility, and end up doing something, like uhm, burning cars or looting Sears. It's the same with allergies. It seems that most kids here have a collection of food intolerances. Again this is no doubt to over-bearing, over-protective, holier than thou parents, rushing in to protect little Jay from the slightest impurity in the world, causing their immune system to be ineffective, and demanding that they spend the rest of their life in a protective bubble. I mean almost every kid seems to have some allergy or other, and these are down to parents destroying their immune system through being over-protective. Tantamount to child abuse, some might argue. But those same parents would look down their snout at someone letting their child's immune system develop. All contributes to the "I'm so perfect" syndrome this place is flooded with.
Although I cannot help but to agree with you about East Van. It is the part that the people who I'm referring to (snobs), look down their nose at. My realtor when I moved here, really aggressively encouraged me to not consider looking here. That was bad advice though as it is about the most pleasant, and exciting part of Vancouver, with more genuine, likeable and down to earth people. I think I made more friends since living in East Van, over a few months, than in the 7 years I've been in Vancouver area. aha- you see, I have been brain aching thinking maybe i am on a different planet but the kids here seem genuine. Several people that know where I live have commented after the event - ooh Commercial must have been full on , bet they rioted there on wednesday too - nope , all quiet on the eastern front (they were probably looting dt ;) ) |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9441330)
Although I cannot help but to agree with you about East Van. It is the part that the people who I'm referring to (snobs), look down their nose at. My realtor when I moved here, really aggressively encouraged me to not consider looking here. That was bad advice though as it is about the most pleasant, and exciting part of Vancouver, with more genuine, likeable and down to earth people. I think I made more friends since living in East Van, over a few months, than in the 7 years I've been in Vancouver area.
Gotta say where I live is more like east van in terms of likeable down to earth and sane people/parents...that's why we live here. I am sorry your realtor did that...why they do that I don't know, but I think there is very much a mentality difference between the person who seeks to live in say, Coquitlam and someone who wants to live in EV and he/she probably thought you were in that box and were doing you a favour. It also happened to friends of mine who moved from the US to BC. They got a suburban realtor who only showed them Coquitlam, deep burnaby and some other 'burb and slagged off EV. Of course when they moved here they discovered how great it is and now wish they'd never listened. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 9439020)
If there had been no ice hockey game would there have been a riot? Of course not. It was an ice hockey riot, something traditional for the sport.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by bandrui
(Post 9441495)
Not so. These people take advantage of any large gathering like this.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by bandrui
(Post 9441495)
These people
I suggest not, the nature of American sport is that any game has few away fans, an ice hockey riot in Vancouver involves people who live in Vancouver and one in Montreal involves people who live in Montreal. Ice hockey doesn't generally draw an interested crowd, it's mostly a game in which tickets are sold to corporations and given away to people who don't care about the outcome but, at the end of the season, people do take an interest and, when things don't go their way, they set fire to cars. It's only once a year and in a different city each year so not worthy of much a fuss in my view but the last game of the ice hockey final is like a Celtic Rangers match in having predictable consequences. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by London Mike
(Post 9440386)
There are experts in this world who study crowd behaviour who would completely disagree with you. What happened after the game the other night was classic social identitiy theory and therefore certainly contributed to by hockey fans, perhaps even normal peace-loving Vancouverites (yes, even). You won't believe me because you are embarrassed about what happened, and of course because of the stories emerging the following day (post-it notes on cars etc). Trust me, this is not a Vancouver issue. Leaders and instigators are necessary, of course, and yes much of this might well have been pre-meditated but once the blue paper is lit ...
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Re: I hate the Bruins
I am not sure why this is so controversial. There is an element here (and not just here) that wants to provoke a riot. It has been going on for years. They tried during the Olympics but the crowd, who were sober and having a good time, told them to **** off. On Wednesday night they found much more receptive accomplices in pissed up hockey fans.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by JonboyE
(Post 9441564)
I am not sure why this is so controversial. There is an element here (and not just here) that wants to provoke a riot. It has been going on for years. They tried during the Olympics but the crowd, who were sober and having a good time, told them to **** off. On Wednesday night they found much more receptive accomplices in pissed up hockey fans.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9441705)
I don't see why premeditated means that somehow this 'isn't vancouver' or that these people 'aren't hockey fans' None of these things are mutually exclusive. This is what I find irritating about the no "true" hockey fans narrative that you see here and elsewhere.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by Kiwilass
(Post 9441709)
I agree, it's freaking irritating.
I don't have a high opinion of hockey watchers, but I assume that most (OK some) of them can premeditate. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by bandrui
(Post 9441532)
I don't see that anything you have said disagrees with my post. I am ex-psych student and know about mob mentality and there were those who got carried in this but, as you say yourself, it was pre-meditated and planned by a few instigators who had nothing to do with hockey. This is not due to embarrassment on my part but on sheer disgust and by what I know about Vancouver from living there for 20 years.
The point I was making is that 'the many' lost their sense of who they were 9-5 in the melee of that evening, what values they normally have, whether they believe in that kind of behaviour normally at all. These were quite probably hockey fans and Vancouverites. It's understandable to feel disgusted, but it's not a Vancouver problem at all. With the right conditions it can happen anywhere. There's some excellent stuff published on this phenomenon (not by me, but I've read it). I'll stop writing now because I'm aware that I'm starting to sound like an arse. :) |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by London Mike
(Post 9441740)
Ok, let's just suppose for a second that 'the few' who created the environment for the disturbance on Weds were not hockey fans (yet, how you can be so sure of this is a mystery - have they been surveyed for sporting opinions?). The majority of the damage and pointless destruction was caused by 'the many' - not just instigators but a wider group of people in the downtown core. These must've been hockey fans, right? Would you agree with me here? I have seen multiple images of people on burning cars wearing the Canucks jersey at least.
The point I was making is that 'the many' lost their sense of who they were 9-5 in the melee of that evening, what values they normally have, whether they believe in that kind of behaviour normally at all. These were quite probably hockey fans and Vancouverites. It's understandable to feel disgusted, but it's not a Vancouver problem at all. With the right conditions it can happen anywhere. There's some excellent stuff published on this phenomenon (not by me, but I've read it). I'll stop writing now because I'm aware that I'm starting to sound like an arse. :) I shocked my coworkers y/day by admitting I don't feel remotely embarrassed by what happened and that I am tired of the sanctimoniousness around it, that as far as I'm concerned it's just human nature in action...the bad side, but that's part of being human. They were literally staring at me with their mouths hanging open. Charge the little f***kers and move on. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9441705)
I don't see why premeditated means that somehow this 'isn't vancouver' or that these people 'aren't hockey fans' None of these things are mutually exclusive. This is what I find irritating about the no "true" hockey fans narrative that you see here and elsewhere.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by el_richo
(Post 9441785)
I see the young hockey fan pictured setting the police car alight is the son of a Dr from Maple Ridge.
Apparently he's had a number of threats to his person for his behaviour. I'm not sure if those making these threats appreciate the irony of not. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9441705)
I don't see why premeditated means that somehow this 'isn't vancouver' or that these people 'aren't hockey fans' None of these things are mutually exclusive. This is what I find irritating about the no "true" hockey fans narrative that you see here and elsewhere.
I think all that passive-aggressivenes finally became aggressive. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by London Mike
(Post 9441740)
The point I was making is that 'the many' lost their sense of who they were 9-5 in the melee of that evening, what values they normally have, whether they believe in that kind of behaviour normally at all. These were quite probably hockey fans and Vancouverites. It's understandable to feel disgusted, but it's not a Vancouver problem at all. With the right conditions it can happen anywhere.
That's what I was saying when I admitted earlier that if I was there, the crowd was 'right,' was 20, full of alcohol, etc... I could have easily been one of them, even though otherwise I'm a decent person.... which I am but I'm also aware that people aren't so black and white and people do **** up. <off to kick canes out from under the local cotton-tops> |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by Oink
(Post 9441866)
I think all that passive-aggressivenes finally became aggressive.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by The4BellsLondon
(Post 9441355)
aha- you see, I have been brain aching thinking maybe i am on a different planet but the kids here seem genuine. Several people that know where I live have commented after the event - ooh Commercial must have been full on , bet they rioted there on wednesday too - nope , all quiet on the eastern front (they were probably looting dt ;) )
I was up in a park on Wall Street, and there were a group of adults sitting on a bench, chatting and drinking. My kids started playing with a jack russell belonging to one of them. The guy introduced himself and to his friends. Certainly a pretty friendly and totally harmless bunch. Of course drinking in public is more of a taboo here, but I was thinking afterwards how I'd have judged the same in Britain. Just a bunch of adults having a drink. Completely tolerated but the same thing in essence, apart from the complete disregard for the law, but it's a silly one so I'll drink to giving silly laws the finger. Coming back to my original point, my worst experiences as a parent relate to North and West Van. Actually life got a lot more boring, and social interaction took a nose dive when I moved out there. Became more interesting in a good way now I've moved back. Oh, also the weather is infinitely nicer in downtown area. It really does rain more on the North Shore. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by canadian_critic
(Post 9442968)
Yes I should clarify that I am not making comments about EV. Not lived in EV long enough, although had nothing but good experiences. Frustrating that it has a bad reputation, yet no doubt made by others who don't live here. Yet it has a fair number of drop-outs, tramps, street people, whatever you want to call them. Unlike most in my apartment, I do not enter / exit East Van in an armoured Hummer, but often on foot, often at night with my kids. I have yet to feel threatened. There is ample police presence but not overbearing, just about right. Plenty of less fortunate who just blend in. Quite a few beggers congregate on the intersection immediately beside my place, but having seen them a few times, they've dropped the request for cash, and sometimes even exchange a greeting.
I was up in a park on Wall Street, and there were a group of adults sitting on a bench, chatting and drinking. My kids started playing with a jack russell belonging to one of them. The guy introduced himself and to his friends. Certainly a pretty friendly and totally harmless bunch. Of course drinking in public is more of a taboo here, but I was thinking afterwards how I'd have judged the same in Britain. Just a bunch of adults having a drink. Completely tolerated but the same thing in essence, apart from the complete disregard for the law, but it's a silly one so I'll drink to giving silly laws the finger. Coming back to my original point, my worst experiences as a parent relate to North and West Van. Actually life got a lot more boring, and social interaction took a nose dive when I moved out there. Became more interesting in a good way now I've moved back. Oh, also the weather is infinitely nicer in downtown area. It really does rain more on the North Shore. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by Kiwilass
(Post 9441726)
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by bandrui
(Post 9443604)
Not sure why Toronto papers are being quoted on a Vancouver story. :thumbdown:
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 9443981)
The Globe isn't a Toronto paper. It's a good a "Canadian" paper as exists.
But, from a BC point of view, it's still a Toronto paper. |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by peas
(Post 9444275)
But, from a BC point of view, it's still a Toronto paper.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 9444337)
How curiously parochial.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by bandrui
(Post 9443604)
Not sure why Toronto papers are being quoted on a Vancouver story. :thumbdown:
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by bandrui
(Post 9443604)
Not sure why Toronto papers are being quoted on a Vancouver story. :thumbdown:
:thumbup: |
Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by peas
(Post 9444275)
But, from a BC point of view, it's still a Toronto paper.
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Re: I hate the Bruins
Originally Posted by el_richo
(Post 9444583)
Cos it's a valid article with very good points that shit all over some of the stuff you say :thumbup:
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Re: I hate the Bruins
It appears that the reaction to the riot is now swinging to the extreme and is just as worrying if not more so than the riot itself.
Home-made "Wanted" posters on Facebook. A user-generated "Vancouver 2011 Riot Criminal List" on Tumblr. Tweeted calls for employers to fire people spotted in online footage. |
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