Hillsborough

Old Sep 12th 2012, 2:01 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Yes, it brought it all back to me. Luckily ( if that be luck ) I was watching on Tv while some friends of mine were there. They were lucky.... they were along the side of the pitch, not in Leppings Lane.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 2:19 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
No is my guess but Im waiting for the report before I comment any further.
Wow- not like you to wait for the facts before passing comment.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 2:34 pm
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by JamesM
Wow- not like you to wait for the facts before passing comment.
No is my guess is a reasonable comment to make. My other comments are what others have said for years a number of contributing factors led up to the disaster.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 2:36 pm
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Default Re: Hillsborough

The announcement has been made:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...nister-1320951
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 2:41 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
No is my guess is a reasonable comment to make. My other comments are what others have said for years a number of contributing factors led up to the disaster.
By "others" you appear to mean the South Yorkshire Constabulary...
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 2:43 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
Do you think the report will confirm collusion between the South Yorkshire police, the Home Secretary, the Cabinet and the media to put the blame onto "drunken Liverpool fans"?
Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
No is my guess but Im waiting for the report before I comment any further.
Care to comment now?
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 3:58 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
Care to comment now?
Sure although I have not read all 400 pages of it.
It has been found that the tragedy is not the fault of the Liverpool fans.
There is no evidence to suggest that all of the Liverpool fans at the Leppings Lane end all had tickets, all arrived in good time and none were drunk and there was no pushing at the gates.
In 1988 the year before the same teams competed in that same venue in the FA Cup semi final and this disaster did not happen. What changed in that year as the Liverpool fans were allocated tickets in the same end.
What I did find interesting in the Daily Mirror report posted are some comments that the author wrote.
On reaching Hillsborough those fears were realised. At 2.30pm, Leppings Lane, the entry point for all Liverpool fans, was human gridlock.
The kick off should have been delayed and yes the Police and stewards should have done better.
The only visible authority was half-adozen forlorn figures in blue on horseback and a few on the ground, screaming at the swaying crowd to back away from the turnstiles.
The Police in very small numbers trying to do their job by telling the crowd to back away. Did they or did they just keep pushing forward to get in.
Fans, angry at the lack of movement and organisation, berated the police, some of whom were screaming into their radios for assistance.
The Police were trying to help were they not? Im not talking about the Supts and Commanders Im talking about the ordinary copper.
At the back of the Leppings Lane terrace, stewards who were supposed to be dispersing the supporters evenly into five pens had vanished. Consequently the bulk of fans ignored the lesser populated pens at the sides of the terrace and headed into the two central ones behind the goal, already over-crowded.
That is the fault of the stewards however why did the fans ignore the less populated pens and head for the 2 x middle ones. See my post about the 1976 semi final.
Anything after that then the blame lies on not the fans but others.
And Trevor Hicks, who lost two daughters at Hillsborough and is a member of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, said the group would now press for criminal action against those involved in the disaster now the fight for criminal convictions will begin.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 4:10 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

I noticed a tweet from @alandavies1, an Arsenal supporter comic, who said he met a Man U fan last week who broke two ribs in a crush at Hillsborough years before 1989. There were no fences and fans escaped onto the pitch that time.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 4:17 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
In 1988 the year before the same teams competed in that same venue in the FA Cup semi final and this disaster did not happen. What changed in that year as the Liverpool fans were allocated tickets in the same end.
You are starting to piss me off with this pig headedness.

What changed was there were 10% fewer police on duty than the previous year, 80 fewer officers to control the crowd at the Leppings lane end, and an inexperienced commander who had NEVER been in charge of an event of this magnitude before when the commander from the previous years semi was available. The overcrowding in the pens was clear before the gates were opened, any competent commander would have ensured those pens were inaccesable to more fans by using his available personel to close them off BEFORE opening the gates to relieve the crush outside, and he might have had the balls to insist that kick off be delayed to prevent the rush.


Before you get any more holier than thou you need to smarten up and realise that this could have happen to any club, and the victims could have been wearing different colours.

The following material was deleted from his original account:"The decision to replace Chief Superintendent Mole before the semi-final needs to come under some scrutiny. This man had many years experience of policing big matches at Hillsborough.

Compared to other semi-finals held at Hillsborough, the organisation of this event was poor, as has been the case for most of the season. Too little notice had been taken of current trends and football intelligence and too much reliance has been placed upon previous information held.

Too many non-operational supervisory officers were in charge of important and critical parts of the football ground.

The deployment of officers around the crucial time needs to come under scrutiny, too many were sat around in the gymnasium whilst others were rushed off their feet."

He also wrote originally: "It was noticeable that the only supervisory officers above the rank of Inspector on the pitch were Chief Inspectors Beal and Sumner and Superintendent Greenwood. Certain supervisory officers were conspicuous by their absence. It was utter chaos."

This was changed to: "On the pitch were Chief Inspectors Beal and Sumner and Superintendent Greenwood."
Excuse that if you can.

Last edited by iaink; Sep 12th 2012 at 4:21 pm.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 4:21 pm
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Tangram
I noticed a tweet from @alandavies1, an Arsenal supporter comic, who said he met a Man U fan last week who broke two ribs in a crush at Hillsborough years before 1989. There were no fences and fans escaped onto the pitch that time.
True in 1976 fences had not been erected at Hillsborough as can be seen in that clip. The fences were erected some years later at most grounds due to the hooligan element that persisted and yes the Utd fans were some of the worst. In those days it was not uncommon for 15,000 Utd or Liverpool fans to travel to away grounds. We have seen numerous videos of what happens when 2 x sets of fans are only segregated by a line of coppers. Such was the mentality in those days and also trying to take over the home supporters end where they were allowed in.
Looking back in time and standing on the Stretford End or an away ground I now shudder at what was allowed to go on and yes I stood on those same terraces at quite a few grounds.
Even today there are calls to allow safe standing and even the Liverpool fans still stand on the Kop today despite the no standing rule and so do other fans of other clubs.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 4:32 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
The only visible authority was half-adozen forlorn figures in blue on horseback and a few on the ground, screaming at the swaying crowd to back away from the turnstiles.
The Police in very small numbers trying to do their job by telling the crowd to back away. Did they or did they just keep pushing forward to get in.
Crowds do not push forward as such, those at the back move forward but are not aware of the problems further in. I never thought of myself as pushing, I started at the back and eventually ended up by a turnstile, you start walking and then find yourself being moved. I very clearly remember seeing a policeman standing just beyond the turnstiles, and me screaming at him to do something. He looked helpless, he just kind of shrugged, the 'forlorn' description works. Of course once through the turnstiles there was a moment of calm and comparative space.

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Consequently the bulk of fans ignored the lesser populated pens at the sides of the terrace and headed into the two central ones behind the goal, already over-crowded.
That is the fault of the stewards however why did the fans ignore the less populated pens
They were not ignored, they were not found.

I entered down a central tunnel, the crowd to get through it was ridiculous, I gave up, went back and looked for alternative ways in, I went out of my way to look. I failed to find any signs or indicators of other ways in, so I went back down the tunnel and put up with the crush to get through. When I got through I decided that the crowd behind the goal was no way for me to spend 90 minutes, I looked to my right and saw a fence, beyond the fence was another half empty pen. I climbed over in to the open space, a few minutes later the big crush happened.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 4:34 pm
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by iaink
You are starting to piss me off with this pig headedness.

What changed was there were 10% fewer police on duty than the previous year, 80 fewer officers to control the crowd at the Leppings lane end, and an inexperienced commander who had NEVER been in charge of an event of this magnitude before when the commander from the previous years semi was available. The overcrowding in the pens was clear before the gates were opened, any competent commander would have ensured those pens were inaccesable to more fans by using his available personel to close them off BEFORE opening the gates to relieve the crush outside, and he might have had the balls to insist that kick off be delayed to prevent the rush.


Before you get any more holier than thou you need to smarten up and realise that this could have happen to any club, and the victims could have been wearing different colours.



Excuse that if you can.
Where have I ever said the Liverpool fans were at fault? Where have I ever said the Police or Stewards were not to blame?
I stated the kick off should have been delayed. I stated the Police and Stewards should have done more.
All I have ever said about this event that there was a set of circumstances that lead up to the event and nobody should have died that day.
The report is out and states the fans were not to blame.
Lets see what others say as per post #3
My comment in post #2 was meaning that No the drunken Liverpool fans wont be blamed as I have followed this event for the last 23 years knowing that mistakes were made but did not know how much buck passing had gone on between the Police and the Govt and that disgusts me.

The report in full
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...t-in-full.html

Last edited by Former Lancastrian; Sep 12th 2012 at 6:07 pm.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 6:43 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Classy Everton.
Attached Thumbnails Hillsborough-a2lzececqae7ahy.jpg  
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 6:49 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Originally Posted by Tangram
Classy Everton.
I hope United can be as classy in a week or so.
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Old Sep 12th 2012, 7:03 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: Hillsborough

Liverpool fans not to blame. Crucial failures in policing led to 96 completely unneccesary deaths. I think we had all realized this.

The confirmation of the level of corruption in the ensuring coverup is truely appalling.
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