Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Methinks you oversimplify ;)

Some nutters use religion as a smokescreen for their intellectually and ideologically bankrupt positions, espousing violence and conflict. Such has been the case for hundreds of years - through the Crusades, the internecine conflicts of reformation Europe, the sectarian violence between Sunni and Shia in the middle east... war in the name of religion is neither new nor justifiable.

Conversely, most adherents of most religions are peaceloving folks who quietly get on with their lives in the contentment that their belief brings them some (albeit somewhat irrational) comfort.

Today, it's almost exclusively the fundamentalists, of any stripe, that give religion (all religion) a bad name. Islam doesn't teach conflict, any more than Christianity does. Of the Abrahamic religions, all three have come to reasonable accommodation with the more extreme bloodthirstiness of the earliest scripture. Islamic fundamentalists, some ultra-orthodox Jews, and some fundie Christian sects tend to concentrate on the bits about a wrathful god, the requirement for punishment by stoning, the subordination of women, and a whole load of stuff that the more, shall we say, enlightened mainstream have pretty much abandoned. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the fundamentalists also have the loudest voices, while the mainstream looks on, aghast but silent by comparison. You don't see too many "not in my name" banners on religious marches...

As I've said before on here, I'm nominally an Anglican. I attended school chapel three times a week and church most Sundays when I was growing up, but since then it's gone from Christmas-and-Easter-when-I-remember to a weddings-christenings-funerals kind of churchgoing. I am comfortable with the breadth of belief within Anglicanism that encourages scepticism and questioning, and with the ability of the Anglican church, rather more than the Roman organization, to adapt to the social mores of the day. That doesn't make me a nutter, nor violent, nor a dangerous maniac, although you're free to disagree on any of those (without fear of retribution, of course).

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Dunno, there is a lightning bolt out there with Alans name on it methinks.:sneaky:

Well said by the way, I'm not religious, not even really a lapsed anything, but my wife is a churchgoer. God aint the problem, people are the problem. There are some very blinkered views of religion bandied about here.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

If that eventuality I'll just become a martyr to the radical atheist cause.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Crikey, is this thread still going? I'm surprised.

<Wanders off for a little while. The pride of shooting a bear on the bum with a pellet gun surrounding him like that of an angel>

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

:lol:

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I watch Fox news. I know everything. It is a mosque, it will be built right at ground zero. Obama will be their Imam because he is a Muslim.
(that was sarcasm)

http://www.park51.org/

This whole anti mosque idea was mainly started by Pamela Geller, and Robert Spencer. Founders of the SIOE, who's motto is "Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense"

There is no use talking or debating with people who have that as their motto.

I'm full on for a Islamic cultural centre, with a prayer space in it being built in Manhatten. If anything this whole debate has shown how ignorant and close minded people are about Islam and Muslim faith and people as a whole. There will be a lot of ignorant close minded people who will hate it, but there will be a few who might use the facilities to learn that not every Muslim is a evil person.

Anyway, that is my opinion. Which is completely irrelevant to anyone other than me, but now you all know. Don't you feel better :)
Hope everyone has a great weekend.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

No, we're not! :p

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I agree, if people want to believe in nonsense that’s their pigeon, just keep it to yourself and stay away from children.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I agree. What we need are another "Crusades" style punch up to see which religion is the hardest and most devout. An open space such as Saskatchewan should even things out.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I think in the centre of here would be more appropriate.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

If this fight were left to only the actual practitioners of those religions, it would be a total massacre.

Take a look inside your average church... not much fighting spirit there, is there? Elasticated waistbands, support stockings and zimmer frames mainly.

Now look inside a typical mosque... it's full to the minarets with crazed, maniacal, bloodthirsty dervishes, all frothing at the mouth to bring jihad to the filthy pig-dog infidels of the West.

Bring it on!

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Okay! :p

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Can't argue with that but they don't leave children alone, do they? I can't imagine there's a household anywhere including a religionist where the children are left unsullied to choose their poison at adulthood.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Same could be said for vegetarians:rofl::p

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

"Son, you're growing up to be a big boy, so it's time you knew a few things. You know the tooth fairy?"

"Yes, Pop."

"Well, that's your mum and me. And you know Santa Claus?"

"Yes, Pop."

"Well, that's your mum and me too. And you know monsters and fairies and ghosts?"

"Yes, Pop."

"Don't exist. All just made up."

"Oh."

<pause>

"So what about God, and the Devil, and the Holy Ghost, and the Virgin Birth, and Jesus rising from the dead?"

"No, that's all true, son. All true."

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Below is taken from a scene from the classic sci-fi comedy Red Dwarf.

For me this pretty much sums up how I feel about religion.

It's a conversation between Dave Lister (last remaing Human alive) and Kryten (an android [robot] servant). The conversation takes place on the eve of Kryten being shut down for good. Effectively the eve of his death.

Lister: How can you just like, lie back and accept it?

Kryten: Oh, it's not the end for me sir. It's just the beginning. I have served my human masters, now I can look forward to my reward in Silicon Heaven.

Kryten: Surely you've heard of Silicon Heaven?

Kryten: It's the electronic afterlife. It's the gathering place for the souls of all the electrical equipment. Robots, calculators, toasters, hairdryers - it's our final resting place.

Lister: I don't mean to to say anything out of place here Kryen, but that's completely Whacko Jacko. - There is no such thing as Silicon Heaven.

Kryten: then, where do all the calculators go?

Lister: They don't go anywhere! They just die.

Kryten: Surely you believe that God is in all things? Aren't you a pantheist?

Lister: Yeah, but I just don't think it applies to kitchen utensils I'm not a frying-pan-theist! Machines do not have souls. Computers and calculators don't have an afterlife. You don't get hairdryers with tiny little wings, sitting on clouds, playing harps.

Kryten: But of course you do! For is it not written in the electronic bible, "The Iron shall lie down with the lamp." It's common sense sir, if there weren't a better life to look forward to, why on earth would machines spend the whole of there lives serving human kind? - Now that would be really dumb!

Lister : Yeah it makes sense. Yeah. Silicon Heaven(!)

Kryten: Don't be sad, Mr David sir. I am going to a far, far better place.

Lister: Just out of interest, is Silicon Heaven the same place as human Heaven?

Kryten: Human Heaven? Goodness me! *laughs* Humans don't go to Heaven! No no, someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts!

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

From Newsbiscuit

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Newsbiskit "may be news before it happens".....

Try this for Catholic Christians in surviving Hiroshima.... supposedly they did and the building they were in, although the church itself was destroyed and later rebuilt....

"Father Hubert Schiffer, born in Germany in 1915, was one of eight Jesuits who survived the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. He was only eight blocks away from ground zero when the explosion occurred. According to the account of Jesuit priest Fr. John Seimes, who had been on the outskirts of the city:
They were in their rooms at the Parish House—it was a quarter after eight, exactly the time when we had heard the explosion in Nagatsuke—when came the intense light and immediately thereafter the sound of breaking windows, walls and furniture. They were showered with glass splinters and fragments of wreckage. Father Schiffer was buried beneath a portion of a wall and suffered a severe head injury. The Father Superior received most of the splinters in his back and lower extremity from which he bled copiously. Everything was thrown about in the rooms themselves, but the wooden framework of the house remained intact.

Another account adds that he had just finished saying Mass, and had gone to eat breakfast when the bomb hit:

Suddenly, a terrific explosion filled the air with one bursting thunderstroke. An invisible force lifted me from the chair, hurled me through the air, shook me, battered me, whirled me round and round like a leaf in a gust of autumn wind. He looked around, and there were no buildings left except for the church house."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Schiffer

http://www.pdtsigns.com/hirosh.html

This fella seems to rebut the whole story:

http://www.lazyboysreststop.com/mary25.htm

His..."BOTTOM LINE: The miracles of priests and buildings that came through the atomic bombing of Hiroshima unharmed – whether attributed to the Rosary, Fatima or Our Lady of Blessed Mendacity – are urban legends. They are the imaginings of people so eager to promote the cult of Marianism that they are willing to weave accounts of miraculous events out of whole cloth. Foolish indeed are they who pay heed to false teachers and false prophets."

And finally, it does seem that a Christian Church remains in the city:

"The Memorial Cathedral for World Peace was built in 1954 by Reverend Hugo Lassalle, who's church was destroyed by the atomic bomb. He himself nearly died. He actually travelled to Vatican City to meet with the Pope and the Pope funded the building of his church in Hiroshima as a symbol of peace, hope, and love for the victims of Hiroshima, as well as the survivors. Pope John Paul II visited this church in 1981 and gave his famous Appeal for Peace."

http://www.nobori-cho-catholic.com/

For what it's worth.....I am CofE.......

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Now back on topic...not sure if there is a Christian variant....

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Making jokes like this is accurate barometer in determining the length of time people have lived in Canada.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Except it was in the mash about two weeks ago.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Let me rephrase: Finding jokes like this funny is an accurate barometer in determining the length of time people have lived in Canada.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

That may be so....but I don't read girls magazines; this however was sent to me by a Brit....Brits and there cute little ways.....God love em.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

First time I've heard the mash be called a girls magazine:confused:

Still, now you mock the person who sent you it after you posted it yourself? Make your mind up.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Where did I say that I personally find this amusing?

As for mocking someone here....certainly not a UK based friend.

But just in case Alan...do you know any purveyors of mock repellent?

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Why did you post it then? :confused:

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

What are you the laughter Police.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Simply curious why you posted a joke that you didn't find funny.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Excuse me for interrupting... This thread is far too long and pointless for me to read the whole thing. But as a fully paid up member, I would like to point out that the thingy you posted was in extremely bad taste.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

OK as you not the laughter Police and to satisfy your curiosity.

Let's just say I chose to post as it was topical, thus exercising a little of our hard won freedom of expression...a mere human rights thing after all.

As I said, I never mentioned what my position was/is - whether I was rolling on the floor laughing or otherwise.

Truth be told, I expected the sanctimonious to jump all over it. What you took from it is up to you, or as Yoda said to Luke (movie quotes and all that):

“Luke: What's in there?
Yoda: Only what you take with you.”

Nuff said, right?

PS..not a star wars or trekky fan am I....;)

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Not funny at all, nothing like Danish cartoons. It's nothing in the American South, even in some provinces like Quebec in Canada.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

This is not directed at el_richo in particular.

What says that all those people who died at Ground Zero were all Cristian? What about the catholics, the jews, the buddhists and so on? I don't think building a church/mosque/tempel is the right thing to do regardless of religion. Instead put up little areas of remembrance/prayers for various religions.

Or none at all.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

As we all know, innocent folks of all types died that day, and of course even though it was an attack on America, not just innocent Americans were murdered.

And, as is often the case the perpetrators killed their fellow Muslims; here is a list with an opening narrative that I do agree with:

"American Muslims bear no collective guilt or blame for the crime of 9/11. We have nothing to apologize for and everything to be proud of, including our loyalty and hard-earned livelihoods. We are not guest citizens, we are not second-rate citizens; we reject marginalization and require no validation. We are equal citizens living and worshipping in our country. (Ahmed Rehab, Huffington Post)

1. Samad Afridi
2. Ashraf Ahmad
3. Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
4. Umar Ahmad
5. Azam Ahsan
6. Ahmed Ali
7. Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
8. Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
9. Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
10. Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
11. Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
12. Jamal Legesse Desantis
13. Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
14. SaleemUllah Farooqi
15. Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
16. Osman Gani
17. Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
18. Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
19. Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
20. Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
21. Nabid Hossain
22. Shahzad Hussain
23. Talat Hussain
24. Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
25. Yasmeen Jamal
26. Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
27. Arslan Khan Khakwani
28. Asim Khan
29. Ataullah Khan
30. Ayub Khan
31. Qasim Ali Khan
32. Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
33. Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
34. Yasmeen Khan
35. Zahida Khan
36. Badruddin Lakhani
37. Omar Malick
38. Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
39. Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
40. Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
41. Raza Mujtaba
42. Omar Namoos
43. Mujeb Qazi
44. Tarranum Rahim
45. Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
46. Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
47. Naveed Rehman
48. Yusuf Saad
49 and 50. Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
51. Shoman Samad
52. Asad Samir
53. Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
54. Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
55. Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.’s Fiduciary Trust)
56. Jamil Swaati
57. Sanober Syed
58. Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
59. W. Wahid."

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/wasim/2...ictims-of-911/

I also agree with YYZ lover on what sort of religious structure should be considered if any is actually constructed.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I laughed at this.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I laughed at you laughing at that.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Excellent. It's all quite jolly.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I must have missed it when catholics (sic) suddenly became no longer Cristian (sic).

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

I still don't get what you mean? Is it the longer a person has been in Canada, the less likely they are to find it funny? Or the opposite?

I just can't work out any correlation.

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Interesting detail about how the Mosque became such an issue. It seems that it was perfectly fine, until one person decided it wasn't and fanned the flames.

The Park 51 Islamic center has been in the works for a long time. It was covered in the press last year without outrage. On Fox News in December, conservative commentator Laura Ingraham interviewed Daisy Khan, wife of the project's imam, and told her that no one seemed to have a problem with the center and that "I like what you're trying to do." Then, about half a year later, a right-wing blogger and the New York Post decided that the project was, in fact, offensive. Whereupon various conservative politicians and pundits, Palin included, determined that they too were very offended, or at least that it was politically advantageous to be. The nonstory was suddenly a story because someone decided to make an issue of making it an issue. And you know where we went from there.



http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2010/0...-for-the-fire/

Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
 

Have you been in Canada long? ;)