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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Cape Blue
(Post 8779827)
Like many people, you appear to conflate "terrorist" with "Muslim" - building a temple to terrorism near ground zero would be the equivalent of building a Hitler (or fascism in general) memorial close to Auschwitz, building a Mosque is just building a Mosque - the vast majority of the 1.8 billion Muslims are not terrorists, just as the vast majority of the Irish weren't IRA.
If the terrorists manage to create a backlash against all Muslims, then they have indeed succeeded. It's the only way to be sure. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Oink
(Post 8778103)
Ahh, the delicious irony of Americans complaining about insensitivity.
Originally Posted by CaptainHook
(Post 8778115)
Americans???? I think you'll find that I2C is an Irish lass in Canada. :p
Originally Posted by Tangram
(Post 8778753)
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 'Nuff said.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Kirsty John and Dominic
(Post 8777968)
You sound very blasé about the thousands of innocent who lost their lives on that day that were on the plane and working in the towers at the time of the attack. Women, Children and men who had nothing to do with the terrorist act but were there through misfortune.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
If it was all as meets the eye then surely freedom of religion is a central tennet of the american consititution, a founding principal of the country, so yes, they should be allowed to build a mosque wherever they wish. Too many people look at a muslim and see a terrorist.
But there are a few unanswered questions: It appears much of the funding for this is from "overseas". If the local muslim population wished to build a mosque, then let them fund it. Saudi funding smacks of political interfence to me Given that the plot was purchased 3 years ago, why has there been no attempt from those leading this project to reach out to the local population, whose concerns are entirely foreseeable under the circumstances? One has to question the motives of building another mosque where there appears to be no need based on the fact that there are many half empty mosques around. I do think the whole situation would be helped immensely if the vast majority of peacefull god fearing moderate muslims would make themselves far more vocal in opposing the extremist elements who are stealing and corrupting their religion into something is never was. The problem I think is that the huge majority of moderate muslims dont seem to be getting the message across that groups like Al Quida and the Talliban are not representative at all of what Islam is really all about, they really need to make it clear how much they oppose those views. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Edo
(Post 8780272)
Yeah, wrong women, children and men at the wrong place at the wrong time. - just as those innocent Afghani and Iraqi civilians who happened to be at the wrong place during invasion
However, i think a Christian Church should be built on these sites of mass death to show the tolerance of all religions and nationalities, and as a way of an apology :) |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Kiwilass
(Post 8776930)
I was listening to the CBC the other day and they had someone on from the Canadian Muslim Congress or something. ANyway, they believe it is a deliberate provocation and that it is being funded by Saudi money, as apparently the leaders are being rather vague about where the funding is coming from. There seems a lack of transparency about it all. THe spokeswoman said she doesn't think many non-muslim supporters understand the battle that is going on right now within Islam, and the muslim community in north america with extremists vs moderates.
She also felt if it were truly dedicated to interfaith dialogue (apparently this is stated as one of the aims of the building?) that would have prayer rooms for other religions, and they don't. As for why it's got anything to do with canadian muslims - they felt as north american muslims, it reflects badly on them as well. I thought it was an interesting POV. And yeah, she made the point about building a church in Afghanistan too and how provocative that act would be. And then of course they had the person who said all the hoo-ha was just islamophobia and blah blah blah. IMHO it's certainly deliberately provocative to want to put an Islamic centre and mosque right there. But banning it would be rising to that provocation, and would serve nobody. Why, if the Muslim site developers really are as peace-loving and reconciliatory as they claim, can't they build a multi-faith centre with a church and a Synagogue in the same building. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8780836)
It appears much of the funding for this is from "overseas". If the local muslim population wished to build a mosque, then let them fund it. Saudi funding smacks of political interfence to me |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by ireland2canada
(Post 8780884)
Can open, worms everywhere. How far do you really want to delve into outsider funding of undesirable, violent activity? Not too far, I'd wager.
Church of England Catholic Church British Council The French CIA etc........ |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Souvy
(Post 8780904)
Let's think.
Church of England Catholic Church British Council The French CIA etc........ Isreal USA I suppose the point is, disagree with the temple being built by all means, but don't stir the murky waters of who is funding it. Especially not in the US! |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by ireland2canada
(Post 8780916)
Germany
Isreal USA I suppose the point is, disagree with the temple being built by all means, but don't stir the murky waters of who is funding it. Especially not in the US! I dont think it would go down to well is the Vatican decided to try and build a church in Riyadh, or anywhere else in Saudi Arabia I suppose. You can make a comparison of various evangelical missions funded by various churches around the world I suppose, but typically those are never in denial of what they are and why they are there. On the other hand the funding for this mosque is not transparent, and that only adds to the overall fear and suspicion about it. The truth is there are far more mosques under construction than can be explained by the number of muslims who need a place to pray. And as for the US and Israel, what the Isrealis get away with is absolutely shocking; Its a wonder to me that so many people and organisations turn a blind eye to it. In my mind there is a huge gulf between criticising the Israeli state and being anti semitic, but it seems to me that many people make that link all the time and for no good reason. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Should I be worried that I find Christopher Hitchens making a lot of sense on this matter?
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...d-zero-mosque/ |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8780950)
You can make a comparison of various evangelical missions funded by various churches around the world I suppose, but typically those are never in denial of what they are and why they are there.
Apparently a charity intent on good deeds. In fact an evangelical organisation intent on converting the foreign poor and then sucking them for the little they are worth. Typically Christian. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 8780991)
Typically Christian. And Al Quida are typically muslim too I suppose. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
They thing about religious people is they can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8780993)
:rolleyes: Sure, whatever.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
They'll be back!!!!
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by ireland2canada
(Post 8780916)
Germany
Isreal USA I suppose the point is, disagree with the temple being built by all means, but don't stir the murky waters of who is funding it. Especially not in the US! |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 8780996)
They thing about religious people is they can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever.
Its extremists that cant be reasoned with, and the problem as I said before is that centrist muslims are not communicating their opposition to the extremists loonies at all well. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781006)
Oh I dont know about that. It the politicising of religion thats the problem
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8780950)
Why not? Is it not a central reason to oppose its building? Build a mosque there by all means if it serves an existing local muslim population and there is a need. Thats all covered by "freedom of religion" I would say. But if its being built in that location to prove some political point, then you have to wonder about the motives and sensibilities of those behind it.
You can make a comparison of various evangelical missions funded by various churches around the world I suppose, but typically those are never in denial of what they are and why they are there. On the other hand the funding for this mosque is not transparent, and that only adds to the overall fear and suspicion about it. The truth is there are far more mosques under construction than can be explained by the number of muslims who need a place to pray. And as for the US and Israel, what the Isrealis get away with is absolutely shocking; Its a wonder to me that so many people and organisations turn a blind eye to it. In my mind there is a huge gulf between criticising the Israeli state and being anti semitic, but it seems to me that many people make that link all the time and for no good reason. Would the mosque be less undesirable if it was funded by some "all-American" organisation? I doubt it. The problem is that if people really want to delve into how things are funded, and who owns shares in such and such a company, then I expect they would be very shocked indeed. I recall reading an article about the collapse of US financial institutions, investment companies and so on. It was suggested that the Saudi influence was growing and growing as they bought up shares in ailing organisations. I suppose a great number of people would be upset by things like that, but then again, people in glass houses should not throw stones! |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 8781009)
Which religion is essentially apolitical? Buddhism, maybe. Otherwise religions are political in pursuing public policy, opposition to gay marriage for example, and in structure; centralization of power and wealth in a manner that would make bank shareholders blush.
The Anglican church is based in the same christian Bible (more or less), with the same "prophet", but the end result is a different view on Gay marriage. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
You know, this whole thing is a media frenzy blown out of all proportion. The site for the new mosque, to replace a temporary one in the area, is NOT ON GROUND ZERO - it is actually two blocks away. There is a heck of a lot of buildings, (commercial, residential, political and several Starbucks), in between the Ground Zero and this new Mosque. It is also not a traditional mosque, but more of an education and study centre - something I think people need.
Let them go through a standard planning application, allow the public 30 days to raise complaints on the structure, and let them get on with it. If they receive enough valid complaints from the public, the application will be denied or altered anyway. The fact is, this negative media attention has caused a situation where the uninformed masses affect the freedoms of a community they have no part in. As for the political angle on this, it is now a lose lose situation. I can't help but think that if no one had poked the wasps nest to start with (by mentioning 9/11 and linking all peoples of one faith with a couple of extremist mass murderers), then no one would be getting stung now. What have we learnt folks? Never trust the media - verify the facts for yourself! :frown: |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781034)
Thats the church though, not the religion. Churches exist to exert power to some extent.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by ireland2canada
(Post 8781011)
I dunno, Iain. I think that the majority of people will object to the mosque for emotional reasons attached to a culture of blame surrounding the Muslim faith. I don't think that objecting to the building based on how it is funded, and by whom, stands up.
Would the mosque be less undesirable if it was funded by some "all-American" organisation? I doubt it. T If it looks like its outside influences are out to make a political point, without any care for the local sensibilities of the area, then its not a suprise to me if there is something of an outcry against it, so I think that its important to establish what is driving this project along. Moderate US politicians have a tight rope to walk on this one, on one hand they need to defend the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression, but that also have a lot of Christian voters to reassure too. Those on the right have it relatively easy in this case, they can just scream in outrage, genuine or otherwise. LOL, If the average american realised how much of the country was owned by middle eastern and chinese interests they would no doubt be shocked. Its not a trend I see ending any time soon either. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 8781055)
The extent to which a religion is independent of its organizational structure is too obscure an argument for me.
The church is just an umbrella organisation, it cant possibly accurately represent the views of all those under its mantle at the same time. People of faith are not necessarily mindless sheep who unquestioningly follow all that the church leaders have to say. Not in private anyway. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by ireland2canada
(Post 8781011)
I dunno, Iain. I think that the majority of people will object to the mosque for emotional reasons [...]
Take, for example, the widely publicized opinion of Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League. Supporting those relatives of the 9/11 victims who have opposed Cordoba House, he drew a crass analogy with the Final Solution and said that, like Holocaust survivors, “their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted.†[...] Claim that something is “offensive,†and it is as if the assertion itself has automatically become an argument. You are even allowed to admit, as does Foxman, that the ground for taking offence is “irrational and bigoted.†But, hey — why think when you can just feel? To give another example: many moderate muslims were as annoyed by the ludicrous over-reaction to the Danish cartoon thing as many non-muslim western free-speech proponents. But some of the same Westerners are now up in arms because the boot is on the other foot, if you'll excuse the mangling of limbs and metaphors. You can't have it both ways. Objecting to the mosque because it's somehow deemed to be offensive to the memory of the victims of 9/11 is bollocks. It's religious intolerance and bigotry dressed up as hand-on-heart, God-bless-America nationalism, and it's ugly. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by ireland2canada
(Post 8781011)
I recall reading an article about the collapse of US financial institutions, investment companies and so on. It was suggested that the Saudi influence was growing and growing as they bought up shares in ailing organisations. I suppose a great number of people would be upset by things like that, but then again, people in glass houses should not throw stones!
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781056)
LOL, If the average american realised how much of the country was owned by middle eastern and chinese interests they would no doubt be shocked. Its not a trend I see ending any time soon either.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781056)
I disagree, I hope that the majority of americans are not so bigoted that they associate all muslims with terrorists. If the mosque was there to serve the personal needs of the local muslim population, in association with their freedom of religion, then I dont think there would be all this fuss.
Well, we can all hope. My understanding is that the mosque is there to serve the personal needs of the local population. As I mentioned earlier, there is already a mosque on that particular site. And yet, here is the aforementioned fuss. If it looks like its outside influences are out to make a political point, without any care for the local sensibilities of the area, then its not a suprise to me if there is something of an outcry against it, so I think that its important to establish what is driving this project along. I think it is probably a combination of various parties causing the outcry, for their own agenda of course. Moderate US politicians have a tight rope to walk on this one, on one hand they need to defend the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression, but that also have a lot of Christian voters to reassure too. Those on the right have it relatively easy in this case, they can just scream in outrage, genuine or otherwise. LOL, If the average american realised how much of the country was owned by middle eastern and chinese interests they would no doubt be shocked. Its not a trend I see ending any time soon either. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by CaptainHook
(Post 8781117)
I read an article a few years ago that said around 70% of New York's skyscrapers are either Saudi, Middle East or Chinese-owned.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
It's all psychological. You yell muslim, everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell terrorist, we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Does this mosque have Saudi funding?
OK, I say let them build it there as long as they allow a big synagogue to be built in Riyadh. Seeing as it's about tolerance, and all that. For all those that go on about 'moderate' Muslims, there's no such thing. Just like there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. They're ALL f***ing loopy, believing in a supernatural being who tells you how you live your life, and how people who don't believe in the same things as you are damned??!!! Just because some of them are a bit extreme doesn't make the rest of them 'sensible'. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 8781359)
Does this mosque have Saudi funding?
OK, I say let them build it there as long as they allow a big synagogue to be built in Riyadh. Seeing as it's about tolerance, and all that. For all those that go on about 'moderate' Muslims, there's no such thing. Just like there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. They're ALL f***ing loopy, believing in a supernatural being who tells you how you live your life, and how people who don't believe in the same things as you are damned??!!! Just because some of them are a bit extreme doesn't make the rest of them 'sensible'. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 8781359)
Does this mosque have Saudi funding?
OK, I say let them build it there as long as they allow a big synagogue to be built in Riyadh. Seeing as it's about tolerance, and all that. For all those that go on about 'moderate' Muslims, there's no such thing. Just like there's no such thing as a moderate Christian. They're ALL f***ing loopy, believing in a supernatural being who tells you how you live your life, and how people who don't believe in the same things as you are damned??!!! Just because some of them are a bit extreme doesn't make the rest of them 'sensible'. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781389)
You have a seriously screwed up view of how religion affects people.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781389)
You have a seriously screwed up view of how religion affects people.
Someone who believes that other people will go to Hell or suffer eternal damnation, or that their God is better than another person's God - they have a seriously screwed up view, caused by their religion. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
If you believe in nonsense that's your issue just don't annoy me with your nonsense and also keep away from children.
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Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 8781412)
No Iain.
Someone who believes that other people will go to Hell or suffer eternal damnation, or that their God is better than another person's God - they have a seriously screwed up view, caused by their religion. None of the church goers I know believe anything like that. What you are talking about is a very extremist view, and we all know extremists of all sorts, religous, political, or whatever, are nutters. Having faith in something larger than you doenst in itself make you a nutter, any more than believing in life elsewhere in the Universe, UFOs or that Spurs will one day win the premiership. Its also rather blind to the potential positive aspects of faith. Now, before you get all holier than thou, Im not a religous person, although I guess I share some common values. Im not a church goer, but I know many, and resent this ignorant view of them that gets spouted out here (and elsewhere) by people whose own views dont happen to coincide with theirs. I see a lot of comfort, stability and good that comes from their faith. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by iaink
(Post 8781425)
Exactly, you have a screwed up view of religion.
None of the church goers I know believe anything like that. What you are talking about is a very extremist view, and we all know extremists of all sorts, religous, political, or whatever, are nutters. Having faith in something larger than you doenst in itself make you a nutter, and more than believing in life elsewhere in the Universe, UFOs or that Spurs will one day win the premiership. Its also rather blind to the potential positive aspects of faith. Now, before you get all holier than thou, Im not a religous person, although I guess I share some common values. Im not a church goer, but I know many, and resent this ignorant view of them that gets spouted out here (and elsewhere) by people whose own views dont happen to coincide with theirs. I see a lot of comfort, stability and good that comes from their faith. Hypocrites, the lot of them. |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 8781444)
So why are so many of these supposedly decent Christians upset because somebody wants to build a mosque in NYC?
Hypocrites, the lot of them. Thats the conundrum of US politics, the "Christian Right" is at times anything but Christian. They should stop and ask themselves that tired old cliche "What would Jesus do" more often, only they wouldnt like the answer! |
Re: "Ground Zero" Mosque. Should they or shouldn't they?
Originally Posted by Jingsamichty
(Post 8781444)
So why are so many of these supposedly decent Christians upset because somebody wants to build a mosque in NYC?
Hypocrites, the lot of them. |
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