Gibraltar

Old Apr 5th 2017, 3:48 pm
  #61  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
That's what's so disheartening, that so many people voted on spurious reasons. Not everyone. I accept that there are many with cogent economic and social arguments that voted Brexit, but the 'crooked bananas swing vote' was sufficiently large to knock us out of the EU.
What were the percentages of voters swung by a perceived ( and incorrect) injustice concerning wonky bananas?
Would be interested cheers
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 5:19 pm
  #62  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
That's what's so disheartening, that so many people voted on spurious reasons. Not everyone. I accept that there are many with cogent economic and social arguments that voted Brexit, but the 'crooked bananas swing vote' was sufficiently large to knock us out of the EU.
What evidence do you have as to why people voted the way they did? Thought so

I get that the result didn't go the way you wanted it to but it is done. Why not move to a state that will remain in the EU, then you can keep all of its benefits once Brexit is finalised. After all, those EU citizens are definitely going to guarantee the rights of ex-pat UK citizens post Brexit aren't they?
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 5:20 pm
  #63  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Flogger View Post
What were the percentages of voters swung by a perceived ( and incorrect) injustice concerning wonky bananas?
Would be interested cheers
I need to learn to read to the end of threads before posting.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 5:29 pm
  #64  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
That's what's so disheartening, that so many people voted on spurious reasons.
This continues to sound like a bunch of sour grapes.
A failure to admit that those who voted for brexit did so for reasons that they found compelling.
The argument that they voted for brexit because they were being led up the garden path is unproven at best while the counter argument that those who voted remain did so because they were fed a diet of fear can also be put aside.
Those who live in the properous parts of the UK wring their hands in horror at the outcome.. but in those parts of the UK hit hard by the effects of an governing system that condemned them to more of the same, this was an opportunity to speak out.
'Ah!', I hear you say. 'What has this sense of exasperation to do with brexit?'
It's a question that betrays a misunderstanding of why the brexiteers won. Their reasoning was not spurious, but compelling. They may not have understood the full implications of what they were doing but something had to change and this opportunity filled the bill. Those in the complacent, 'never had it so good' shires will never bring themselves to admit that in some ways it was their affluence and indifference that pushed the rest over the edge.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 5:41 pm
  #65  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
A failure to admit that those who voted for brexit did so for reasons that they found compelling.

The argument that they voted for brexit because they were being led up the garden path is unproven at best while the counter argument that those who voted remain did so because they were fed a diet of fear can also be put aside.
The CPS may ultimately decide if that's true or not: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-misled-voters

From a philosophical point of view, this article is interesting:

Brexit voters: misled victims or conscious agents?
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/71562/1/blo...s%20agents.pdf


Lots of interesting data illustrating how and why people voted here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

Last edited by R I C H; Apr 5th 2017 at 5:44 pm.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 6:10 pm
  #66  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by R I C H View Post
Lots of interesting data illustrating how and why people voted here: How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday... and why - Lord Ashcroft Polls
Really interesting.
I suspect that the real reason that so much angst is generated about the result is that the Remain vote was expected to win, so much so that the Remain side couldn't be bothered to vote in sufficient numbers to do it. This realisation, and a reluctance to accept the fact, means that someone else has to be at fault, hense the description of the Leave group as irresponsible.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 7:44 pm
  #67  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Flogger View Post
What were the percentages of voters swung by a perceived ( and incorrect) injustice concerning wonky bananas?
Would be interested cheers
FFS you guys take things literally. Wonky bananas is just one of MANY untruths propagated by the Eurosceptics to influence perceptions on sovereignty. Like the Americans who bought into the "make America great again" (false premise) Nigel and his chums set the UK debate to "take back control" (false premise).
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 7:53 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
Really interesting.
I suspect that the real reason that so much angst is generated about the result is that the Remain vote was expected to win, so much so that the Remain side couldn't be bothered to vote in sufficient numbers to do it. This realisation, and a reluctance to accept the fact, means that someone else has to be at fault, hense the description of the Leave group as irresponsible.
Why do you always view people/groups "at fault"? Nobody is "at fault" here, but when there has been serious errors made, say Remainers staying home, Remainers not making a positive case, Cameron using a simple majority on a highly complex issue, timing the referendum during the worst refugee crisis in decades, one wonders whether the result is reliable. Is it wrong to pause and reflect on what new future might be on the cards? To reconsider, nationally, if we are indeed On the right course? Two former prime ministers have advocated doing just this.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 8:01 pm
  #69  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Is it wrong to pause and reflect on what new future might be on the cards? To reconsider, nationally, if we are indeed On the right course? Two former prime ministers have advocated doing just this.
No, it's not wrong to pause and consider the future, but reconsider?
I think not, especially when one of the PMs you cite is probably Blair, a man whose judgement will live in infamy (to misquote a US president)'.
Such an argument smacks of 'let's reconsider and reconsider again until everyone agrees with me'.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 8:43 pm
  #70  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
No, it's not wrong to pause and consider the future, but reconsider?
I think not, especially when one of the PMs you cite is probably Blair, a man whose judgement will live in infamy (to misquote a US president)'.
Such an argument smacks of 'let's reconsider and reconsider again until everyone agrees with me'.
Not again and again, just reconsider after the heat of the moment. But I can see it's not going to happen. Too many hell bent Brexiters that are ideologically against being in the EU whether it benefits the nation or not.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 9:38 pm
  #71  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
FFS you guys take things literally. Wonky bananas is just one of MANY untruths propagated by the Eurosceptics to influence perceptions on sovereignty. Like the Americans who bought into the "make America great again" (false premise) Nigel and his chums set the UK debate to "take back control" (false premise).
Once Brexit has occurred, the Court with supremacy in England and Wales will be the Supreme Court in London, and the Westminster Parliament will be supreme over all things in the UK. Who else will have "control" over citizens of the UK while they are in the UK? Apologies for being "literal."
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 9:52 pm
  #72  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
Once Brexit has occurred, the Court with supremacy in England and Wales will be the Supreme Court in London, and the Westminster Parliament will be supreme over all things in the UK. Who else will have "control" over citizens of the UK while they are in the UK? Apologies for being "literal."
No man is an island.

Although, I suppose in Britain's case, though literally not a man, literally, we are an island.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 9:53 pm
  #73  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Not again and again, just reconsider after the heat of the moment. But I can see it's not going to happen. Too many hell bent Brexiters that are ideologically against being in the EU whether it benefits the nation or not.
Concerning the European parliament and Commission, are we not right to be suspicious of such large bureaucratic decision making structures? Should we not be concerned about centralized planning and its effect on the capacity of individual inquisitiveness and creativity? Brexit challenges the totalizing pan-European meta-narrative. It’s a re-conceptualization of how we experience and explain our existence as a culture in the world. I assert the decision to leave the Union is a bold and couragous challenge by the British people, to the idea of concentrated power and it imagines a more open, localized definition of democracy and human agency.
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Old Apr 5th 2017, 10:15 pm
  #74  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Funny how this thread is about the sovereignty of a British territory and Brexit and wonky bananas has take it over! Ill admit the wonky banana part may have been my fault - but bats made me do it! lol.

I dont think Gibrlatar should be drawn into Brexit negotiations its nothing to do with it, and shame on Spain for attempting to use Gibraltar as some kind of bargaining chip!!
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Old Apr 6th 2017, 12:27 am
  #75  
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Default Re: Gibraltar

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian View Post
What evidence do you have as to why people voted the way they did?
People announcing over decades, and still, that they want/wanted out of the EU because of things like silly EU rules about bananas and cucumbers.
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