Paul_Shepherd

Simply put, it is up to the people of Gibraltar, they are British citizens, and they have made it quite clear they still wish to remain a British overseas territory. So why should it be given to Spain?

What Spain wants doesn't come into it, as for the Brexit vote, this is a separate matter and has nothing to do with it.

Im sure Spain wouldn't pull a stupid stunt by trying to annex it, so its storm in a tea cup.

Snowy560

Thank you Paul. I know my relatives were really shocked by the Brexit vote. It could lead to all sorts of complications crossing the border. But that doesn't mean they would want to identify as anything other than British. As you state it's a separate thing and there a lot of history/politics there.
In the 70s 60s maybe I can't recall my grandfather lived in Spain. During one dispute when the border was closed for a long while he had to travel from Spain to Morocco to Gib monthly to get his UK pension.

Snowy560

It must have been 1969:

Spain would suffer if it vetoed a Brexit deal over Gibraltar | BrexitCentral

Oink

Why little? We have 60 million people and the 5th largest economy in the world.

Shard

It's a state of mind. Britain's economic success of the last 35 years has been because of EU membership, not in spite of it. We're diminishing our trade position with our primary economic partner, and sinking back into petty nationalism. IMO it's a retrograde step.

Hurlabrick

Precisely!


I was a firm 'remainer', but I am not now a 'remoaner'.


I think Cameron was crazy playing Russian Roulette just to paper over the cracks in his own party. I also believe that referendums for major change (e.g. BREXIT, Scottish Independence etc.) should not be based on simple majority, but should be based on 'clear majority' - at least 60%, probably 2/3rds (sound familiar?).


But hey, Britain is where it is and must (and is) get on with it. There is no doubt at all the fifth biggest economy in the world can 'go it alone', it is just the uncertainty that this transition period creates over then next few years that a lot of people could live without (myself included).

Oink

Maybe its more that we want to engage with the wider global comuunity as an independent and authentic actor rather than be constrained and controlled by the narrow confines of a European paradigm?

Oakvillian

I don't know a great deal of the (recent) history of Gibraltar's spats with Spain, but it seems to me that membership of the EU has not exactly made a huge difference to Spain's ability to make the border crossing difficult for people going in either direction. The Gibraltar issue has always been raised as a proxy by governments in Madrid to distract attention from other, domestic, issues - I suppose this is what is happening now, and Brexit has provided a convenient context for Alfonso Dastis to persuade Donald Tusk to stir the pot.

It's not helpful on either side - either for Tusk to have called out Gibraltar as needing special consideration, of of Michael Howard to have invoked the spirit of Thatcher and the Falklands. It'll simmer down long before the Brexit negotiations are completed.

Snowy560

Personally I don't believe that. Events in the UK post the ref last June lead me to conclude the basis of the vote was a desire to stop immigration. I don't think (but clearly I cannot prove it) that the motivating desire was to reach out globally in a different way. But of course, the UK (government) is forced to present this as a desire now having turned its back on the single market (the largest market).

Novocastrian

Could you please elaborate on this narrow European paradigm? Oh, and who is "we"?

Snowy560

+1

Oink

On the contrary, we now have the ability to create an immigration policy that is open to the global community, very much like Canada.

Isn't it better to trade in multiple markets?

Oink

The UK can benefit from bi and multilateral trade agreements that best suit our national interests. We don't need the unnecessary bureaucracy of the European Commission to that.

The UK as a nation state.

Snowy560

When the one on your doorstep is the largest by far, that would seem the obvious place to start.

But this isn't about the economic health of the country: this is about the UK government staying in power by delivering "the will of [some of] the people". The UK government isn't concerned about the economics or it would be doing everything it could to retain access to the single market. This isn't about the UK either: it's about England.

I see there's been a call to return to Imperial measurements.

I don't want to get into a further debate about it because I'm horrified by what's happened and is happening as project Brexit unfolds. It makes me very sad.

Oink

Of course we'll trade with our European neighbours.