Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

The two biggest killers cigarettes and alcohol - both are drugs both are legal. Drugs have been around since day dot, society dictates which are accepatble and which are not - and this changes depending on different factors... not that long ago opium dens were the "in" thing. Heroin kills less people by far per year that cigarettes or alcohol, infact if you lumped all other drugs together ( yes illegal ones) they would still add up to less deaths per year than cigarettes or alcohol. Cigarettes and alcohol are taxed nicely!! - the current trend is to ban cigarettes, in 10 or 20 years from now will they be illegal?? if so what will be said of them at that time, will people who choose to smoke be seen in the same light as todays illegal drug users?
The war against drugs will never end, humans have used mind altering substances forever and will continue to do so for a mutitude of reasons. Outlawing it and pushing it underground doesnt work, people will still choose to use dangerously. I dont know if legalising it will work, - in places where clinics have been opened for safer practices it has been proved to be of benefit to the user and the local community - lower crime rates, less chance of BBV's STI's etc etc ( hence less drain on health systems)
Just something to think about!!

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

1) Stats please????

2) I have previously stated that with enough evidence I can see an argument for the legalisation of drugs. Sadly there is also an argument for repatriation, Rightly there is an argument for compensating persecuted minorities (that would be ALL minorities that have EVER suffered ANY form of persecution), I am sure some people could make an argument for the legalisation of Child Porn and justify Child Soldiers.

3) My ORIGINAL statement (and one I stand by) is that the legalising of the drug trade will NOT solve all gang related problems as they exist in Vancouver or ANY other NA City.

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

Stats are not the issue here, the problem is there will always been damaged humans who need to blot out stuff with drugs, alcohol whatever.
The gang problem would surely move on to another lucrative area, but the cost to society could never match what drugs are doing.
If grown adults want to indulge in drugs let them, tax it and spend the money elsewhere.
This line in the sand of what constitutes legality is the problem. Anyone who has ever worked with chronic alcoholics would not consider drink a "soft" option.
Society does not really care about the addicts just the peripheral damage they cause with theft etc.
Vancouver is a very safe city, even the hard core crims have better manners than the UK versions

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

The old well, fags and booze are legal.... argument holds little water. Shouldn't we be instead asking why these socially accepted drugs are legal. Two wrongs clearly don't make a right.

People can use alcohol in a responsible manner. I;m sure the same could be said for marijuana. But crystal meth is pure evil. Take the stuff two or three times and you will be addicted. Within a year all your teeth will have fallen out.

From another perspective, there is a huge problem with smuggling cigarettes and alcohol from the US and other provinces. Also the most commonly items stolen after cash in robberies (711, gas stations etc) are..... cigarettes.

Food for thought.

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

Control is the factor with drink, and some degree cigs. Alcohol is just so easy to produce.
I agree about meth, but it is also relatively easy to manufacture.
The question is why do people indulge in this self destructive behavior?
Be it glue. spray, drink.

And should the rest of us pay the cost of prohibition

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

In the modern society we seem to be attached at the hip with crime, almost a symbiotic relationship of sorts exists. Our economy is plugged into crime. Consider if you will:

A drug addict breaks into a car, smashing the window looking for something of value to steal. Finds nothing. The owner pays 300 dollars to get his window replaced. The auto glass repair business is prospering since half of his business is due to thefts from auto.

The addict now looks for a more promising target. Someone's house. He kicks open the door, ignores the alarm and steals a tv and some other items. He leaves and pawns the stuff and buys drugs. The pawn shop sells the tv to someone who has saved more than half the price over new and uses the extra money to put towards the rent. The person he buys the drugs from uses the money to buy groceries and puts some towards his rent and puts gas in his car and pays his cell phone bill that he uses to sell drugs. The dealer bought his supply from a supplier who has just bought a spanking new SUV from a ford dealership. The sales man makes a nice commission and pays his mortgage.

Police attend, CID attend as do the forensic guys. A fingerprint his is sent to BCAFIS where a tech searches it against data bases using a sophisticated computer system developed for this purpose. A hit is recorded and a suspect identified.

Police attend and locate the suspect and arrest him. He is driven to the police station where a member from CID interviews him after he has spoken with duty counsel. He is then turned over to the duty sergeant who processes him and places him in cells. In the morning he is transported to court, meet with his brief. He then appears before the judge and a court date is set. Bail is denied and he is lodged in pre-trial to await trial. A crown prosecutor receives the file from police and prepares for trial. Meanwhile legal aid assigns a lawyer for the suspect. Disclosure is requested but police are short manned so a police officer does disclosure on double time over the weekend, submitting a claim of 15 hours at double time or about 80 dollars an hour.

Meanwhile the owner/victim files an insurance claim (his rates will now go up) a repair man fixes the door, and the owner goes to future shop and gets a new tv. The sales man is happy, this is the second tv he's sold that day due to break and enters and maybe he can afford that weekend in vegas. The homeowner upgrades the alarm system and locks on doors and windows and pays for monthly monitoring of his alarm. His wife is now afraid in her own home and is having trouble sleeping and undergoes counseling.

Trial goes ahead. The accused is accompanied by corrections officers, the judge, defence and the crown, and a court steno are in attendance. Police are called as witnesses as is the tech that recorded the fingerprint hit (both of whom were on days off and get paid 4 hours at double time). The accused is found guilty and goes to prison. He is released to a halfway house after 6 months and must visit with his probation officer every week. He also undergoes drug rehab for his addiction.

Consider all the jobs that are generated out of one low level offence. Can we afford to not have crime? Where the line is crossed is when violence threatens our safety and we are forced into action, otherwise we happily go about our lives, complaining when our cars are broken into, but quietly accepting it's part of living in the modern world, at least in a large urban area.

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

I love thought processes like this, it makes for a very interesting viewpoint.

Using this logic, although we have just spent a considerable amount on a renovation I almost feel like I'm not a contributing member of society because we haven't be broken into. ;)

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

I can't be so bold as to claim that it is entirely my viewpoint. I have a degree in sociology. The sociology of crime, attempts to place crime and our tendency towards it (we all have or will break the law at some level) as being part and parcel of a normal social order. I think violent crime though is a whole different parcel of fish. Sociology looks at the role crime plays and attempts to understand it rather than Criminology that tires to fix it. From a sociological perspective, does it need fixing? Crime is what we have shaped within our societies, be it from a cultural or ethnic perspective, poverty vs wealth or even feminism.

Furthermore, we don't have to be victims of crime to be inserted into the economy of crime. We put locks on our doors, buy security systems, bike locks, we buy steering locks for our cars, pay insurance rates, buy cell phones for our children so they can call if they get into a fix etc. etc.

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

I don't really care if you claim it all or not I love the process and think it is just another way of looking at a part of life we tend not to look at very often.

It's always interesting to have your own view shaken a little (not too much mind) every now and then.

I do agree with you on major crime, that as you say is whole other matter.

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

So why don't the cops just shoot him dead? Cost of a single round? $5.00, if that. No need for all the others involved and no chance of re-offending. Bad justice of course, but don't those that steal from others (as indicated in your post) take themselves out of the justice system anyway?

Not my personal opinion, just playing Devil's Advocate - I'm sure many would advocate such "justice":p

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

What and send the economy even deeper into the spiral? :eek::eek::p

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

Gotcha - what we really need in times such as these, are lots more crimes being committed:rofl::p

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

Now you're cookin';):lol:

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

Interesting. After the outcry over the taser incident, i can't imagine what would happen with this scenario. The point is that our world is a complex one and solutions are as equally as complex. If we would get up tomorrow and there were no crime, where would be? Happen it would be utopia, we could all sit around in our underwear writing poetry and holding hands. God it sounds awfully boring.

Our world as evolved over centuries.The technological age is the new challenge. The internet is creating a whole new era of crime, crime that we are ill placed to deal with that spans international boundaries. Those that are inclined to child porn can view buy and view it in the privacy of their homes. This in turn has created a massive industry that didn't really exist before, at least not to this extent. Pedophiles can pose as 12 year old girls and enter our children's bedrooms via chat sites etc. The laws are not keeping pace and police find themselves facing crime that they are ill equipped to deal with.

Many police forces now offer online reporting. To report a crime all one needs to do is send an email. For instance a break an enter. Does this now make it easier to include a couple of extra items that were n't actually stolen?

Cell phones have influenced the amount of reported crime that we encounter. Crime is often constant, it is really only known crime that is what we deal with as viewed by crime stats. Even advances in medical technology have an effect. Do murder rates go down simply as a consequence of better medical intervention, now reported as an assault and not an homicide? Again cell phones cause quicker response times for paramedics.

Even better relations with the police may lead to more reported crime, creating the perception that crime is increasing. Woman now are more likely to report domestic abuse than in the past.

Re: Gang warfare in Vancouver?
 

office of national Statistics - not hard to find feel free to look it up

2007 - 8742 deaths directly from alcohol use this isnt including accidents associated with alcohol use - people killed by drunk drivers, falls and fights etc

smoking 25,000 deaths associated with smoking - includes COPD etc

Drugs - 2640 associated with drug use.

I have worked in substance misuse for 8 years - what did you thiink i made it up????? my God some people can be so patronising, funny but there are people in here with knowledge and experience apart from the select over opinionated few who think they are Gods gift to britishexpats