Atlantic Xpat

I can recommend, that if, as an adult, you are circumcised you elect for general rather than local anasthetic.

dbd33

It's easy to make a case for spaying or neutering; the world is full of uncared for dogs and cats. It's not the case that pain inflicted in the course of spaying or neutering is only for the pleasure of the human deciding to inflict that pain.

It's not adequate to say that there are "different strokes for different folks", some things are fundamentally wrong; otherwise the holocaust is just different folks enjoying their different strokes.

Oakvillian

Godwin's Law is hereby invoked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

dbd33

Ha!

Mally Lass

A good friend of mine has been a boxer breeder for over 30 years and since the docking ban, will not longer be breeding them.

There was a reason for docking in the first place. For working dogs who's tail proved a hindrance or danger to the dog and the job. The docking procedure is virtually painless done correctly as someone said earlier, and early enough in the pups life. I will never agree to ear cropping or anything else similar. My friend has witnessed many accidents with undocked boxers over the years, which have been excrutiating to the dog later in life, when a simple docking could have been performed with no detrimental affect to the dog as a pup.

I agree that non working dogs/breeds should no longer be docked but for those dogs who are bred from working lines and still work to this day, I think the decision should lie with the breeder to determine that.

Unfortunately it's the people who DO care about their dogs and want them docked for the original reasons who are out weighed by the beaurocrats who would rather concentrate on chastising them and seen to be doing something good, than doing a real job and closing down the hundreds of evil puppy farmers that breed thousands upon thousands of sick unwanted puppies every year.

My SIL was once whipped on the leg by an excited Doberman's (full) tail and it cut her leg open, quite nasty too.

As I said I don't wholly agree with it, but until you know the true workings of any breed you are not fit to judge either way.

dbd33

How many boxers work and what work do they do?

I don't recall them being popular at sheep dog trials.

Mally Lass

In the dog world, the term 'Working' means the job they were bred to do, hence there being many dogs in the 'Working' Group.

Boxers were never bred to do sheep dog trials

Alaskan Malamute - Freighting Dog
Siberian Husky - Sled Dog
Dalmation - Carriage dogs
etc

Boxers were a fighting breed and bred for that original purpose. Later the tail proved dangerous to people and themselves as it was harmful and could cause problems for the dog later in life, as with many other dogs with 'whip' tails.

As I said in my original post, I don't agree that non working dogs should be docked.

dbd33

I guess my issue here is with the definition of non-working dogs. Unless the specific animal herds through gorse and barbed wire the "working dog" justification is spurious; bits are cut off the dog to make it look as if it could work even though it doesn't. It's just fashion.

boxerdog03

Being on the committe for a boxer training club, your friends views are echoed by many. Even my local vet reports breeders saying they will not breed anymore as they are unsure if the puppies will be homed. Personally I think it's a shame that such a loving, friendly, playfull breed of dog could become scarce due to legislation instigated by people with no knowledge of the breeds or no experience of having owned one.

Boxers tails are quite thin and inflexable and can cause long term health problems to the dog if damaged. I'm sure tail injuries will increase and not just outside the home but inside it too, they are always wagging their stumps at 100 miles an hour and they can be damaged on furnature too. An injury to the tail for an older dog will result in a full surgical procedure with all the risk associated with this including the anesthetic and post op infection, when it can be prevented by a small painless procedure when the dog is a couple of days old.

The boxers at our training are unable to sit properly as they can't get their tail out of the way, all of them are rescue dogs which have needed re-homing as owners have said they caused too much damage to their property with the tail. I wonder if these are some of the people who don't agree with docking.

In humans and animals the current ethos is about health promotion and taking steps to avoid injury and ill health, the majority of dog owners vaccinate their animals to prevent illness, neuter them to prevent unwanted pregnancy, it seems to me that for some breeds of dogs the decision to try and reduce the potential for injury has been removed. Not every boxer with a tail will injur it, but for some it will be an unecessary injury that could have been prevented. Don't people with a history of breast cancer in the family opt for a double mascetomy rather that risk developing the disease? Docking tails is not purley cosmetic it has a health benefit!

Here is the web page for the council of docked breeds, it contains information and pictures on docking and also information on the increased numbers of tail injuries following the ban in Sweeden, plus pictures of tail injuries.

http://www.cdb.org/index.htm

dbd33

If so, I think it unlikely that they let a random person decide whether or not they should have their tits chopped off.

Mally Lass

It has nothing to do with fashion.

If you are a breeder of a fantastic line of true working dogs that 'herd through gorse' etc and you intend on working one or more of the pups you produce, how do you know which ones to dock and which ones to leave. The reason whole litters were docked were so that the breeder then chose the working dog on it's ability later in life when docking would then be painful to the dog.

When I say non working dogs I mean breeds that no longer do the job they were bred for.

However, I do wholeheartedly believe that there are health reasons for docking too which include dangers to the dogs involved that are left with a tail.

Until you are 'In' the dog world it's ok for many to sit outside and say 'it's cruel' when you only see half of the picture.

If so many of you are outraged by animal cruelty, attack your government and local councils to stamp out puppy farming

Mally Lass

Actually a lady in Sunderland did just that.

Her mother, sister, and 3 Aunts all had breast cancer although she herself was clear at the age of 23. She could not get anyone to listen to her concerns so just in case she did develop it, she went to Europe and had her 'Tits' (as you put it) removed

And....Vets aren;t random people, they are health professionals of the canine world, who know the workings of a dog.

Do you see any Vets complaining about docking ?

dbd33

Again, how many boxers work and what work do they do ? Are 75% of boxers used to herd through gorse and barbed wire, 60% ? Two of them ?

I'm comfortable with animals suffering, I eat all sorts of animals, I kill as many raccoons as I can as quickly as I can. I use medicines. I just wouldn't inflict pain on a person or animal because I thought the person or animal would look better if redesigned. That pretty much defines cruelty.

boxerdog03

It's happening more, if there is a strong family history of breast cancer, people are opting to have their breasts removed to prevent illness.

My point using this analogy is that by banning docking they are removing the choice. As dogs can't give consent it should be up to the breeder/owner to choose what is in the best interests of their dogs.

dbd33

She decided to do it. To be comparable to the situation of the dog she would have to have no influence over the decision. The dog's situation is more comparable to me insisting that you have your nose pierced (again, if already so).

I assume they generally don't do it as it's illegal. If they complain about not being able to do it then they don't do so in any publication I see.