Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12402181)

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Im not sure what you mean in that how does education define a wage? I'd have thought that was obvious? Isn't that how we all play a role in society, we go to school and are educated and then go to college or university to get educated/trained further so that we can do a job to enable to make a living?If an individual strives to obtain a good education, then don't they deserve a better wage than someone who can't be bothered to do that?

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12402181)

...there are other ways to try and unite the UK...

Originally Posted by dave_j (Post 12402202)

Hmmm... Let us consider a hypothetical problem requiring a decision to be made.

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 12402245)

1. Not all students see education as vocational training, some people pursue education for the sake of education or because of a compelling interest in a subject. I think it desirable for society to support education for its own sake but, no, the educated individuals do not deserve a better wage because they are educated.

2. People achieve a higher wage through means other than education, luck, hard work, well chosen parents, are some other important factors. Someone who, for example, creates a product and sells lots of it is not undeserving of high pay because he or she lacks education.

In short, income and education are loosely related but neither defines the other.

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12402244)

To my other point, I actually meant to add that to my post, about the entrepreneur route to success, this is a natural talent that a person is born with and not something that you can be taught, you either have it or you don't.

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12402244)

They are not commies but are two unrealistic and dangerous idealists.

Originally Posted by bats (Post 12402297)

...opportunity, and upbringing play a huge part in where we end up in life...

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12402270)

I agree with the majorty of what you have said in your first point, maybe what I said was taken as a generalisation, I am looking at myself and my extended family as examples, I am talking about vocational education, not academic.

When I chose a further education subject it was something I chose to directly qualify me for a career/vocation. While some of my aquaintances left school and obtained unskilled work, I was encouraged to obtain an education in a field of work that I would spend my career in, even though at the time it was tempting to earn money for the first time, I knew that would be a short term high.

So in that case I disagree, why should someone who took the easier path receive a wage that is as good as the one who worked hard for an education that related to their skilled vocation.

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12402247)

While you're at it, remember the Flexible Rostering/British Rail dispute? They wanted to save a bit of money making train drivers work longer shifts and have reduced breaks. I can't recall the exact details but British rail lost as much in a few weeks of the dispute as they stood to save over a few years. That didn't seem to involve much common sense. Something else prevailed. :(

Originally Posted by dave_j (Post 12402391)

I did say that logic and common sense wins most of the time. By win I mean that decision making process that generates the most advantageous outcome for the common good.

The examples you quote were not derived using common sense or logic, they would have been political decisions made not for the common good but for reasons detached from the issue in hand. I've often argued that if you give a politician a problem to solve he/she'll ignore the issues and make a decision based on how well they personally come out of it when the dust has settled. A monkey tossing a coin would do better since he/she'll be right 50 percent of the time.

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 12402400)

You've often said that, and you've often been entirely wrong.

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 12402181)

A modern communist/extreme socialist are terms I made up, they are not official and are my opinion only. They are terms I coined to put my point across.

Despite what I said earlier Corbyn is not a communist, as even he knows communism has never worked anywhere in the world, but no one can deny that Corbyn's policies are far left which takes socialism to the extreme, as I have said in earlier posts, his socialist intentions are well meaning but are unrealistic and unachievable.

The Patron Saint holiday pledge he made was for FOUR UK wide holidays, one for each home nation, which again is well meaning in trying to bring the UK together, but unrealistic, there are other ways to try and unite the UK.

Im not sure what you mean in that how does education define a wage? I'd have thought that was obvious? Isn't that how we all play a role in society, we go to school and are educated and then go to college or university to get educated/trained further so that we can do a job to enable to make a living?If an individual strives to obtain a good education, then don't they deserve a better wage than someone who can't be bothered to do that?

Originally Posted by bats (Post 12402297)

Dbd33 has answered part of the education /wage question but what I dislike intensely is thinking that those who don't have a formal education didn't work hard or that those with fewer academic qualifications should earn less because smarter more educated people deserve more. Genetics, opportunity, and upbringing play a huge part in where we end up in life.

What's wrong with being an idealist? It's how we aspire to be better, to improve. Is that dangerous?

Which of Corbyn's policies are too extreme for you?