Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

What else can they do?
They have empty airplanes gathering dust and deteriorating and parked, losing money and causing problems with every second that passes.
The world now understands how Boeing created an airplane designed to fly itself into the ground and Boeing's anti-competitive actions in the past might bring the odd chicken home to roost when they need to convince foreign regulators that they now know what they're doing.
The educated customer, given the choice, would fly anything but the MAX, it'll be an obvious avoidable risk. They'll be shaking their heads wondering as they board an airplane bearing the word MAX.
So what to do if you've bought these white elephants and have shareholders ringing the phones off the hook asking 'When?'
I suspect that they have yet to convince their pilots and crew to fly and it may be that one condition of crew flying is that senior executives accompany them to share the risk and offering this is probably a non-offer and more like a forced response. I'm tempted to wonder whether a MAX pilot would take his airplane into the skies if the executive scheduled to fly missed the flight.
They could offer substantial reductions in ticket prices but this negates the choice of the MAX in the first place and once in place it may become difficult to remove, but it may be the only way to fill the planes and show them to be safe and more importantly improve cash flow.
The other, in fact the only, action that'll erase memory of a catastrophic series of decisions made by Boeing executives is time.. and that'll cost a great deal.. and probably cost some executives their jobs when the dust settles a little more.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

If they gave me free international flights I'd take them, but I wouldn't pay to fly in one.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

In view of this -

It will be interesting to see the financial implications IF & when liability is established.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

This investigation into how the MAX was certified and allowed to fly is opening quite a large can absolutely jam packed with worms. Anyone who's been following this episode will be becoming increasingly concerned about the functional reliability of the parts that keep these tin cans in the sky. Now I know that statistically air travel is probably the safest way to get from A to B, certainly safer than simply crossing the road, but.. there's this feeling that it's becoming less safe and incidents like those with the MAX serve to concentrate attention and perhaps it's because flying is so safe that we demand it remain so.
Even so, some of the antics of Boeing in this time of increased nit picking do make me wonder whether they need a root and branch overhaul.
For example Reuters tells me that Boeing engineers ' are reducing the scope and duration of certain costly physical tests used to certify the planemaker’s new aircraft'.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKCN1TH0A3
Now you'd think that when Boeing is being accused of stretching the rules a little to be able to rush the MAX into the world you'd think that decisions that make such news would be swiftly put in the nearest bin.
And when any Boeing news is placed under increased scrutiny, the following article does generate some basic questions.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...7-safety-fears
I'm no aviation engineer but presumably this system uses a PLC to monitor a switch and when the switch is made it issues commands to open and close a selection of valves. The fact that such a simple procedure fails makes me wonder just how robust more complex systems are and who exactly is testing and signing off such designs.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Not a firm order, so could change but IAG has signed an LOI for 200 MAX aircraft which would be destined for BA, Vueling and Level.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48682123

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

A potential risk was discovered during simulator tests last week.

"Boeing said in a securities filing late on Wednesday that the FAA has asked it to address through software changes a specific flight condition not covered in the company's already-unveiled software changes."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/faa...nh3r-aW7iwrlJc

Boeing is running out of room to park planes, they have turned to using car parking lots around their facility to park aircraft.

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-staff-car-park/

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

This is what happens when you abandon rigorous checking and set procedures.
You develop flawed designs that fail the scrutiny of serious investigation.
It's like a rotten onion, peel away one mouldy layer and there'll be another one hidden beneath... and some moulds kill you.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

So their solution has already been found to be flawed. Wow :banghead:

Wouldn't you think, after all the problems, they would make absolutely sure they got the solution right??

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

On the contrary, for the test pilots this is a success; they've been intentionally trying to crash it on simulators to test the software upgrades and finally found an instance when it still takes an extended period of time to recover from a dive. Now Boeing will have to determine the cause and rectify it. The whole purpose of grounding the airplanes was to do exactly this, so these guys can deal with it instead of someone driving a couple of hundred people on a commercial flight.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

My point is that Boeing should have discovered that before it got to the FAA.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

You mean before the 2 passenger planes crashed? I just assumed we all knew that.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

It appears that tests, made in a simulator, posed several scenarios that might invoke an MCAS malfunction and indeed at least one did.
The fact that such scenarios were under test by pilots exemplifies the lack of understanding by the MCAS programmers as to possible scenarios available.
If a pilot can ask the question 'What if?" we are tempted to ask why the programmers didn't.
What price an as-new MAX these days? Might be some on Craigslist shortly, just buyer collects.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

No I mean before they put forward their software solution following the crashes I would have thought they would test it in all possible ways to destruction before handing it off to the FAA. They obviously did not, which yet again calls into question their competence and quality control.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Very comprehensive article! Thanks for posting it, Xpat. Even our tiny local airline (Cayman Airways) has one of them (or it may be two) parked somewhere, waiting patiently for the all-clear.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

British Airways is buying 200 of them, despite having to wait.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Is that because of Brexit and they don't want to buy Airbus just to piss off the EU?

IAG is the one who placed the order, they own BA and several other airlines and the 200 ordered wont all be going to BA.

Also seems IAG feels they are too reliant on Airbus and want to diversify their fleet a bit.

"Walsh noted that there had been "concern" within the airline group for some time that it was becoming too reliant on the European airframer.

"That's unhealthy," says Walsh."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...aptive-459324/

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Forget what Walsh says, it's all about profit and the price of the airplane. IAG will have squeezed Boeing 'until the pips squeeked' to borrow a phrase from Denis Healey.
Current thinking is that the MAX won't fly before late 2019 and it's still building 40 a month to be parked somewhere .... and ... it never rains... https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boe...leak-1.5193550 .... but it pours ... https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/federal-prosecutors-issue-subpoena-for-boeing-787-dreamliner-records/

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Yes indeed. It's your second link that's the heavyweight. Wow! Where will they draw the line?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

With today's "fly by wire" aircraft the controls in the cockpit (joy stick, throttle and the suchlike) are not connected mechanically to the functions they control. They are connected to a computer which has "flight envelope software" which reads all the inputs from the cockpit controls (and others from static sensors on the air frame, remember the external air speed sensor that used to get iced up and give false readings?) and determines if those inputs are within the flight envelope for safe flying, if the pilot inputs something that is outside the flight envelope that would put the plane in jeopardy then the computer will either notify the pilot via a warning light or audible notice or it would override the input and change it to an input that is within the flight envelope software. The first fully fly by wire commercial aircraft was the airbus A320, Yes the one that crashed at the Paris air show, now was that pilot error or flight envelope software issues? The pilot comes in for a low level pass but the computer thinks its coming in to land and takes control and it crashes into the trees. It is not economically viable to debug 100% the flight envelope software there are too many inputs most of which have many variables and to debug every combination is not going to happen so manufactures just debug the things they know that will cause major problems and enough to get certification.
. Boeing must have followed all the correct procedures to get FAA approval for the original 737 but once they changed the engines and the position of them did they redebug the whole software or just the parts of it that they thought would be affected.
So i am afraid its not like the old movies where Errol Flynn would be fighting the controls of an out of control DC3 and prevent it crashing into an orphanage and win the hand of the fair maiden. We are all doomed Cpt Mainwaring.
There are things outside the software that can affect it too just imagine if every passenger plugged a phone/ laptop/ i player into the socket at the same time would the power needed take power away from where it is realy needed. Do they calculate for those sort of scenarios.
.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Seems like the most recent issue isn't related to the MCAS software/update, but a separate issue.

"The problem occurred during a scenario that commercial pilots are highly unlikely to encounter, and doesn’t involve the flight-control software linked to the two crashes, according to one of the people."

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/...box=1561736893



Boeing should clean house, top to bottom, all new management brought in from outside the company, new board of directors, keeping current management is not good PR in my view, all these fiasco's happened on the current management's watch, they should be ousted, fresh management with a new set of eyes is needed.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

An LOI which I am sure gives IAG an out if needed, will be interesting to see when/if its converted to a confirmed order.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Is there a crack in the dam?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/martinr.../#1bf044bfad8a

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Ah well, at least something is now being done for the families of the dead...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...ctims-families

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1TZ1I0
Boeing has now reached the point in the hole when they should really consider stop digging.
No doubt there are some who'll look back and thank uncle Bill for getting himself killed on a 737 MAX and gifting them a windfall and no doubt the bean counters at Boeing, faced with the prospect of punitive damages, are seeking to exploit this attitude and preempt it to take control of the story....
BUT...
Think about others who'll see this as a form of 'blood money' or payoff to kill the real story that the MAX is an unsafe aircraft that killed their loved ones for whom haggling about how much they were worth will not be welcomed.
This offer smacks of 'much too little much too late'.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Looks like Lion Air families are in settlement talks to avoid a trial. Any proposed settlement is to be reviewed in hearings starting July 17th.

"Mediation to settle more than 50 lawsuits related to the Lion Air crash could lead to a deal by late August, plaintiffs’ lawyers said during Thursday’s hearing."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-...ms-11561647474 (paywall FYI)

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

$100 million is a pitifully small amount of money. It smacks so hard of "these are poor people from poor countries. Let's bung them a couple of hundred grand each to make them shut up and go away... and throw a few million into 'community projects' so that we can call the whole thing a 'goodwill donation.'" Jesus, but that's callous, even for an organization as evidently uncaring about the priority of profit vs human safety as Boeing has shown itself to be.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I have only practised in two jurisdictions but, in both, it is far less expensive to kill someone as a result of negligence than it is to injure them. IIRC, the damages for a fatal accident were 10,000 in England and Wales, although damages for loss of future earnings, loss of use, could be substantial. However, the Supreme Court of Canada has decided that, rather than using a multiplier/multiplicand (one times the other to provide a future figure for future losses - so someone earning 50,000 and expected to live for another 20 years would receive 50,000 x Y, with Y being discounted for accelerate receipt and future contingencies), Canadians have to accept all in a "loss of capacity" claim that results in a maximum of around 150,000.

Hopefully, jurisdiction will rest in the US and a sympathetic jury will award massive punitive damages.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Oh, I have no doubt the damages claims will be significant - an am well aware that the system in the US is vastly different in terms of dollar amounts to that in Canada or the UK. It was my understanding, though, that this proposed $100 million fund was outside the scope of any legal process, but with undertones of expectation - or at least hope (nowhere stated explicitly, of course) - that lawsuits may be dropped as a result.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

OK. I would fire the marketing team, if that is their intention!

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

This is encouraging, I think. Unless the EASA is full of ex-Boeing engineers and execs too...
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...g-list-demands

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

While I don't doubt that various international aviation regulators are independently minded, I have a small niggle that simply won't go away.
In my mind Boeing has some headway to overcome, among these are the Trump trade war with the Chinese, the suit against Airbus for alleged subsidies and the unrelenting hounding of the Bombardier C Series and no doubt there are many other blunt axes waiting to be ground.
There is little sympathy for Boeing's plight and the European Aviation Regulator is making a point by drawing a line in the sand. It remains to be seen just how awkward they, and others, mean to be in the future.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The crack widens...
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48899588

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Kind of an interesting lawsuit filed recently. The lawsuit accuses Boeing and Southwest Airlines of collusion.

Lawsuit was filed July 11 in federal court using Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.(RICO)

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/class-...over-737-max-8


Executive in charge of the 737 plant in Renton due to retire. He held the position since August 2018, doesn't appear he was involved in the 737 MAX development, taking charge after it was in production.

"Mr. Lindblad wasn’t involved in the development of the MAX. He took charge last August as production of the plane was slowed by supply-chain kinks including late delivery of fuselages and engines. "

https://www.wsj.com/articles/head-of...es-11562882041

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The MAX is dead... Long live the.. er 737-8200 ?
https://www.theguardian.com/business...es-name-change

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Borrowing a slogan from the old Norcanair of Saskatchewan:
If You Don't Care, Fly Ryanair

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Might be the first time its been used in such a public way, from what I can gather the -8200 is to designate the higher density MAX-8 Ryan Air has. Not applicable to most other airlines who fly a less dense variant. I do think Boeing will eventually re-brand the MAX but doubt it will be this. The -8200 designation goes back to at least 2015 before any aircraft were even delivered.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ly-new-459666/

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

A colleague of mine, when once presented with a ticklish problem defined his solution as "the dictates of common sense".
It's been a lesson I learned well that a dispassionate approach to a problem generally points you in the right direction, a lesson Boeing would have done well to learn.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/24/busin...oss/index.html
Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg has done well to keep his job, a pity that one result of this is that others might lose theirs.