Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Part of the sales pitch for the MAX was the minimal (<1hr with an Ipad) training needed to transition from a 737 NG to a MAX. However, given that AC don't have any NG's AFAIK, let's hope those pilots are still current on other types!

Planes are a little more expensive than trolley buses....;) Both AC and WJ have a bit of slack in their fleets but not a great deal. If the MAX grounding is longer term then all the airlines that run them will be chasing additional capacity by wet leasing what is likely a relatively small pool of available aircraft. (Spinning up those birds from the desert is not a quick process.). Sunwing or Transat have already chartered in a B767 to help.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Airlines have some slack/spares in their fleet, but Air Canada for instance has 24 737 MAX in the fleet, no airline will have enough slack to cover that many aircraft and maintain a full schedule. I am sure both WS and AC have every available aircraft and crew they have flying to try and keep disruption to a minimum, but with 24 aircraft grounded, there will be disruption simply no way around that.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

According to Wall Street Journal

"The U.S. Department of Transportation is investigating the Federal Aviation Administration’s approval of Boeing Co.’s 737 MAX jetliners, according to people familiar with the probe, an unusual inquiry into potential lapses in federal safety approvals for new aircraft."

https://outline.com/pBYSWt

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Seattle Time's article from today.


https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...ion-air-crash/

"Federal Aviation Administration managers pushed its engineers to delegate wide responsibility for assessing the safety of the 737 MAX to Boeing itself. But safety engineers familiar with the documents shared details that show the analysis included crucial flaws."

"Both Boeing and the FAA were informed of the specifics of this story and were asked for responses 11 days ago, before the second crash of a 737 MAX last Sunday."

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Anyone involved with the validation of complex software will realise what a minefield it can be. Even simple applications can have so many conditional statements embedded within them that testing and validating each branch under all possible conditions can be extremely difficult and time consuming.
Approval for such software at a terminal is one thing, and that's hard enough, but where it involves simulators and actual flying time in aircraft it lends itself to cost cutting and poor application of inappropriate standards designed for yesteryear.
Add to this the pressure being applied from the manufacturer to approve, what is really a confidence trick, and you have accidents waiting to happen.
I doubt that the average FAA technician or standards officer is qualified to undertake inspection and judgement of complex flight control software, the best they can do is to fly the plane and witness how it performs. In the case of the MCAS routines installed in the 737 MAX, this was obviously not good enough and the inevitable bug remained hidden until discovered by those unfortunate enough to experience it.
So Boeing engineers are to install software updates. Am I expected to accept that those responsible understand and have tested it under all flying conditions in the short time before these aircraft are flying again?
I think I'll wait a year or two before I answer that one.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Remember Lauda Air, 1991 -

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

If you read the Seattle Times article it says that essentially certification was outsourced to Boeing to self certify or was signed off while testing was not completed to meet a deadline.

The bolded text is the crux of the matter. Can a fix be put out in a matter of weeks, tested and certified. Pressure will clearly be on to do so to get the planes flying again. An additional, mandatory training component for crews is also likely IMHO. One of the dynamics of this particular issue though is passenger perception and awareness, amplified or empowered by social media and reporting. In other words the planes might be certified safe and passengers might still refuse to fly on them.

EDIT to add: To my last sentence, I'm supposed to be flying with my wife and kids on a MAX in July to the UK on WJ via Halifax. Plus I'm a regular traveller between St John's and London with AC who fly the MAX. So I have a fair amount of interest in this subject!

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I wonder how common self certification is within the worlds airline level manufactures?

Does for Transport Canada let Bombardier self certify or does TC do it all at every step? Same with the relevant authorities in the EU for Airbus or Brazil for Embraer.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Judging by news reports, US is unusually/uniquely lax on this front. Example of the differences in approach from Brazilian and US regulators on the 737Max training in https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...=.3384e9aa4883. In Europe, EASA have sole responsibility for certification.

I'm reminded of entertainment rides in Vegas, as I nervously mumbled "I know this country is the litigation capital of the world, but when I'm being cantilevered a hundred metres over the ground, I really like knowing that Stockholm and Berlin had a say in the safety regulations"

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Rides to very greatly by state, some states do a better job vs others.

Go to Disneyland in California and every ride somewhere usually near the entrance has a sign that says "documents related to the certificate of compliance of this attraction may be viewed at city hall."

Seems to be quite a few regulations in California regarding amusement park rides.

One thing I notice there vs in BC is elevators, all the elevators in California have a license posted inside each elevator that shows last inspection date, when it expires and various other details about the elevator, where in BC I have never noticed such a thing.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

[QUOTE=Jsmth321;12655974]Rides to very greatly by state, some states do a better job vs others.

Go to Disneyland in California and every ride somewhere usually near the entrance has a sign that says "documents related to the certificate of compliance of this attraction may be viewed at city hall."

Seems to be quite a few regulations in California regarding amusement park rides.

One thing I notice there vs in BC is elevators, all the elevators in California have a license posted inside each elevator that shows last inspection date, when it expires and various other details about the elevator, where in BC I have never noticed such a thing.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure?? I've often seen permits, date of last inspection, etc etc. It's one of the things I look for!

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

[QUOTE=scilly;12655995]I have never seen one inside the elevator, our current building has 2 elevators neither have permits inside the elevators and our last building didn't either and can't say I have noticed one in any elevator, maybe its not required to be kept inside but some places do?

I'll try and get a photo later today of the inside of the elevators.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Must be in a conspicuous place in the cab in BC (Elevating Devices Safety Regulation)

All the ones I saw on display in Manitoba were expired, which might be why they've gotten rid of their requirement to display them ( )

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

AC is planning on no MAX until 7/1.

They plan to retain the A320s that were to return to the leasing company for 2 additional months.

A321s coming from WOW the conversion will be sped up.

Air Canada will charter an Air Transat A321 during April as well as part of March.

Aircraft from Rouge being used on mainline routes.

Calgary- Palm Springs route suspended.
Halifax/St. Johns to London suspended.
YVR to Kona and Lihue suspended.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

If its required to be conspicuous seems places are not following the rules then.

Our buildings elevators nothing visible, and I can't say I can recall ever seeing anything in the cab of any elevator I use, which is what led me to believe it was not required. Guess some places don't follow the rules? Guess it is required.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

US Dept of Justice is investigating now.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/u-s-...N0xAl_aTPYTz5g

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Garuda Indonesia seeks to cancel it's MAX order.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/22/w...oeing-737.html

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing has the software fix, time to see how long it takes to test and such.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5102728/b...Kx1-golSudxXEY

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing has a credibility issue that's of Trumpian proportions.
As I understand the issue, this MAX evolution of the 737 series has generated some strange flight characteristics, among which is a tendency for the nose to lift. It's clear that this happens under normal flight conditions otherwise there would have been no need to have conceived a 'fix' to prevent the nose rising to a level that could induce a stall. This would have been encountered during flight envelope testing but admitting that the aircraft could under some circumstances not behave predictably probably persuaded the management to order a 'fix' and then subsequently decide to not admit the existence of the resulting MCAS system in order to mask the existence of the problem.
Compound this with a bean counter mentality that places a value on provision of essential safety equipment and you have an enterprise that has lost it's way.
Imagine driving a car, a brand new Bongo, only to discover later that the airbag has been disabled under heavy braking because it had been discovered that this could operate the airbag so a little bit of code has been inserted to disable the airbag under heavy braking and when you need to brake hard you hit a truck, hard.
If a Uber driver arrives to take you to an important appointment and he's driving a Bongo, will you get in?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Perfect analogy!

The 737 was designed back in the mid 60s…….in simplified terms the 737 Max is 60s legacy design with major modificatIons to parts of it it to improve fuel efficiency, add in a stretched body and “cobble it all together” its no surprise its doing strange things like a tendency for the nose to lift during flight,..….

Problem is as you say, Boeing never wanted to disclose that problem especially for the fact it was being covered with a software fix. Technology nowadays is great in many ways….but this aircraft would never have made it past the design stage if it were the days before software could be written to make up for a mechanical shortfall.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The history of a scandal and and background of why two airplanes fell out of the sky.
https://www.vox.com/business-and-fin...ndal-explained

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

https://globalnews.ca/news/5109603/b...ZvWgo7MIfBsOIA

"U.S. and European regulators knew at least two years before a Lion Air crash that the usual method for controlling the Boeing 737 MAX‘s nose angle might not work in conditions similar to those in two recent disasters, a document shows."

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Hmmm...the fact they certified the plane safe "in part" but didn't hi light or even list this corrective action in the flght manual is either gross negligence or a cover up.... if I had lost a loved one in either of those disasters I would be furious, as it sounds like both of these disasters could have been easily prevented.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

It's all becoming a little political isn't it?
The expected preliminary report on the recent crash is being delayed.
The expected fix for the aircraft will take 'weeks'.
Nobody is saying anything that'll raise the prospect of the death of the Max and the crippling of Boeing.
Will we be encouraged to accept re-certification of an aircraft who, like the odd bank, may be 'too big to fail'?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

When your a countries largest exporter by dollar value things will always be political, right or wrong just how the world we live in works. Seems pretty much everything is political these days though.

If the MAX was grounded permanently, I don't see it killing the company completely, may end its commercial aircraft division, but as a company I would expect them to survive, although go Chapter 11 and reorganize.

Seattle and Washington state might go into recession though Boeing has something like 80,000 employees in the region.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing did a test flight today, they took the CEO with them.

They will do additional test flights before submitting the software update for approval.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5128277/b...pxNbqI0rGocdMY

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

My cousin took me on a tour around Seattle on his motorcycle back around 1970 and we went by the Boeing factory - it's still the largest building in the world. A sister who worked for Chrysler said their Jeep-Eagle plant in Brampton was the biggest factory she'd ever been in, and it doesn't hold a candle to Boeing.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing tour and the museum are on my wish list of things to do.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The FAA has created a Joint Authorities Technical Review team to review the software Boeing is working on for the MAX, the team is chaired by former NTSB Chairman Christopher Hart and will also include members from NASA, the FAA, Canada and other countries willing to take part.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing has now conceded that MCAS contributed to the recent crash.
I believe that it will no longer be sufficient to simply rubber stamp the 'fix'. Questions surrounding how this aircraft acquired certification will inevitably require a complete and in depth examination of the entire flight control code. How much pressure Boeing will be able to apply to whoever's job it is to take on this poison chalice is open to question but I think that Boeing would be prudent to ensure that it is seen to be patient because such investigations take time, and time costs money, in this case quite a lot.
Imagine the fallout in terms of customer resistance to fly if a re-certified Max 8 fell from the skies.... for whatever reason.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Here is the best reporting I have found on the background to Boeing being in this mess: https://www.vox.com/2019/4/5/1829664...oftware-update

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I suspect that we'll witness how Boeing's future is perceived by the outside world if we keep and eye on the CEO's bonus and shows that a month is a long time in the aircraft business.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-for-last-year
To summarise the headline:
Boeing Co.’s CEO received $23.4 million last year for turbocharging growth and driving record performance, announced March 2019.
Dennis Muilenburg’s 2018 pay includes a $1.7 million salary and $13 million bonus, an increase of 27 percent from a year earlier.
I suspect that there will be those who'll want not only his bonus back but his head to go with it. This man will have overseen the decision not to have engineered a new competitor for the A320 NEO and to have signed off on MCAS, the fix intended to manage the unusual flight characteristics of a cheap lash-up intended to save Boeing money and help fund this CEO's bonus.
News that Boeing has reduced production by 20% begs the question of what Boeing will do with those already made since few in the world at large will want to bite the bullet and state that this aircraft is safe to fly. But every man has his price and no doubt there will those willing to do just that, just promise them a bonus. They might even promise them free flights on the MAX but will they accept them?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Isn't that inviting the question rather than begging it?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

As a design engineer it was put to me that items tended to be redesigned every seven years or so because that was the general turnover of specialist experience. This was important because you need a certain level of expertise in order to answer the question 'What if?' when assessing safety.
I draw your attention to the following article. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...lure-data-show
What this places in the cross-hairs is the accusation that nobody at Boeing asked the question 'What if the angle of attack sensor fails?' when used as a single source of data for a safety critical piece of software where such sensors have a credible history of failure. In other words Boeing engineers were insufficiently experienced to understand the robustness of equipment they were basing their decisions on and weren't experienced enough to ask ALL the questions that needed to be asked to satisfy the safety of their designs.
It also highlights a management regime that allows such designs to pass through what should be a rigorous confirmation process before being signed off. It smacks of a hurried 'Let's get this fixed quick and don't ask questions' mentality that shouldn't exist in any design department.
What else lurks in those dark corners where the MAX designs have been laid to rest?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Can't post a link to this, yet...

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...907355eabc.jpg

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Now I can

Article

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I have worked on several commercial types, both from Boeing and Airbus.
Boeing used to have pretty solid safety procedures and almost every system onboard had a backup of some kind and in some cases 2, this is referred to as "Redundancy".

Admittedly that was before we had "glass cockpits" full of screens rather than the old analog dials for the various sensors and indicators needed to fly.
Only last week, a plane was forced to land due to complete cockpit display failure.

When Airbus released its first models, Boeing was the first to criticise, as Airbus depended heavily on computer aided flight. You may have seen some shots of airbuses pulling some pretty impressive manouvers at airshows for example, where the computer would override inputs from the pilot and not allow him or her to push the aircraft out of its safe flying envelope.

The 737 has been a mainstay of all airlines for many years, but to stretch a plane, hang extremely powerful engines on the wing which wasn't really designed for the type and then to expect software to compensate for the inherent instability is not a good strategy, nor is still trying to call it a 737 and use the historical safety record to try and push sales. As usual a frantic attempt to capture the market.
I think that this has been a massive blunder of Boeing and it will be interesting to see how this develops.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

FAA to meet with Southwest, American, United company safety representatives along with pilots and union officials today regarding the Max.
2/3 of 737 MAX operators have experienced the fix in simulators.
The joint review board for the update, the FAA has set up now has representatives from China, Europe, Canada, Brazil, Indonesia, Ethiopia and others that are not named.
Southwest has updated its schedule to reflect no MAX aircraft until early August, where AA and UA have updated through early June

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/11/reut...g-737-max.html