Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Regular work horse 737 s being checked now for cracked wings in Australia

Not a welcome news story for Boeing

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

It's not a new story, the issue has been known for a month now and widely reported including by me in this thread. ;)

Issue became known end of September with an airworthiness directive issued by the FAA on October 3 for inspections to be conducted. Of the 1,000 inspected so far worldwide 50 have been found to need repairs.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Well, this could be the start of something big!
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/28...737-max-planes

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Looks like bonus fodder to me....
But news like this will definitely put the willies up the average customer and, as you say, it could gain momentum.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Not looking good is it? Would you trust Boeing?
https://thehill.com/policy/transport...ing-max-return

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Looks like some progress is being made.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6154624/b...NMSy4ehhUzcaw4

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

At least one engineering manager at Transport Canada doesn't like MCAS.

""The only way I see moving forward at this point" is that Boeing's Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) "has to go."

Official Transport Canada comment is that these are just working level discussions.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/can...bgvp8MkUv4q6Es

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I suspect that there are those not inclined to make the MAX return to flight an easy route for Boeing.
Remember the brickbats that Boeing tossed at Bombardier?
Rearrange the following... Roost - Chickens - Home - To - Coming

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

first flight-test Max 10 has rolled off the assembly line a few days ago, Boeing expects to conduct first flight sometime in 2020, entry into airline service is not known at this time pending the outcome of the Max groundings.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...max-10-462495/

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Would it have been easier, cheaper, and safer to remove all that MCAS stuff and just let the pilots fly the planes instead of trying to fix it? I'm remembering the astronauts' protest over being "spam in a can". I realise the design fault happened in the adaptation of new engines causing the stall problem, but trying to compensate with something that caused 2 crashes and is now so difficult to make work doesn't seem right. I don't want to fly in one, given the trouble they've had to date. In the early 80's Ford put some crap parts in cars to fix little problems instead of addressing design faults, and I had several of those cars. Better to spend money building something right in the first place than pay out on the recalls.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Seems it would be, but maybe the plane can't fly without it, who knows, guess time will tell.

Airbus and Boeing should have both designed a new narrow-body from clean sheet. Airbus didn't run into the same issues as the A320 family already sits higher off the ground so they didn't have the same engine placement issues on the wing Boeing had.

I think both companies are at a point where they are going to have to consider the next generation of narrow-body to be clean sheet design, especially Boeing.

As a passenger for comfort purposes, I would like to see a small wide-body on the market again, a new updated, more efficient 767 type aircraft. The days of 767's across the US were more pleasent flights vs all the 737's and A320/319/321 models used now.

Boeing did manage to get to 2 small confirmed orders for Max models last week, 20 ordered by an unidentified airline (some buyers prefer not to be identified, this isn't all that unusual.) and SunExpress ordered 10 additional on top of the 32 already on the books, SunExpress is jointly owned airline by Lufthansa and Turkey.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/19/busin...ers/index.html

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

If air traffic is going to double in the next 20 years I suppose existing designs are going to have to fill the need, given the pace of research and development. I was trying to look up something about research into fuel efficient engines, and came across this bit on new engineering using composites and wing design. I wonder how long until something like their models gets in the air?
https://phys.org/news/2017-03-fuel-e...ft-future.html

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...6d48f197dc.jpg

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Probably 2030 at the earliest I would guess.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

This is a bit worrying.
Boeing, like it's planes, seems to be coming apart at the seams.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boein...162111214.html
and.... I don't like this...
" The newspaper also said the company might not have to do a retest and regulators would likely allow Boeing to prove by analysis that it would be enough to reinforce the fuselage in the area where it failed."
Presumably it was designed 'by analysis' in the first place.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Look at the upside the test aircraft failed at 1.48 times its limit load, only need to get to 1.5 times for 3 seconds to pass and no aircraft would see forces in normal operation reaching 1.48 times its limit load.

The cabin was also pressurized to 10 pounds per square inch which is beyond normal pressurization, and not even something Boeing was required to do but chose to, almost wonder if they had not done such high pressurization if the aircraft would have passed,

I do wonder at times if this new technology being used in the engines is too premature for prime time, considering the issues engine manufacturers have been experiencing. Boeing and Airbus both have had issues with various engines they need for these newer generation aircraft.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I think climate change is playing havoc with storm patterns and causing an increase in severe turbulence incidents, so building them really strong seems like a good idea to me.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

One reason these tests are made is to ensure that the factor of safety designed into the structure has been well understood. The fact that it failed within an envelope where the structure should have remained intact suggests that either the minimum strength of the fuselage material wasn't sufficiently well understood or the variability in the manufacturing process was wider than expected.
In either case the structure failed when it shouldn't have and putting what amounts to a sticking plaster across the failure is a poor substitute for actually understanding why it failed in the first place.
I've no doubt that Boeing will investigate the cause of the failure and may already know the reason, but failures such as these can only make future design safer provided the bean counters are shut away in the vault marked "Danger - Keep Locked"

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ging-wing.html
Apparently the reports that a cargo door failed earlier were incorrect. It was a passenger door that only opens inwards that blew out.
Pictures of the failure are frightening.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Even Boeing's military planes are wonky, it seems! Check out this interesting report...
https://www.rt.com/news/474695-austr...-compensation/

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

You do realize Boeing doesn't build the engines which are General Electric in this particular aircraft.

That is like blaming Airbus for engine troubles on some of their aircraft when the fault lies with the engine manufacturer.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I do blame the company that makes the wonky engines, but I also blame the company that buys the wonky engines, and even the company that maintains the wonky engines and signs off on them, if it's an outside contractor.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Is it a widespread issue with this particular engine? That is the question, if its not widespread issue, its not really an issue at all, engines sometimes fail, no surprise there.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Why only a fine of 3.9M for this? Actions like this destroy any claim to Quality Assurance.
https://thehill.com/policy/transport...ling-defective
" The FAA also said that Boeing was made aware of the issues by suppliers and still certified the jets as airworthy."
"Boeing knowingly submitted aircraft for final FAA airworthiness certification after determining that the parts could not be used due to a failed strength test,”

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Fine amounts are likely set in legislation, I doubt the law gives the FAA freedom to make up amounts, i am sure there are some sort of set criteria and amounts they follow.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

You may be correct but 133 aircraft are involved here equating to about $30k for each deliberate act. The idea behind QA procedures is that they're designed to prevent issues like this.
Once you breach QA trust then nothing you do can be trusted. Not so much an issue if you make paper clips but passenger aircraft?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The sanctions table allows considerable latitude.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...tion-measures/

I don't doubt that other aircraft manufacturers bend the ears of their certification bodies, but tales like this tend to taint the industry as a whole. Is it as safe as historical data shows or have we just been lucky?
Guess we'll never know unless....

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

This really doesn't surprise me, the FAA has often been called the tombstone agency only moving when forced because of loss of life.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6283577/b...bPViTdrYzNRev83

After the first crash the FAA apparently estimated of the life of the MAX if Boeing didn't fix MCAS would result in 15 accidents.

"federal safety officials estimated that there could be 15 more fatal crashes of the Max over the next few decades if Boeing didn’t fix a critical automated flight-control system."

Only way Boeing will get any trust back is if they clean house, time to remove all current upper management and board members, clean the place top to bottom.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Not really a surprise, the MAX will not get approval in 2019, looking like January or February at the earliest.

Looks like the new director isn't letting Boeing dictate things.

"FAA administrator Steve Dickson said Wednesday he would not clear the plane to fly before 2020, and disclosed the agency has an ongoing investigation into 737 production issues in Renton, Wash. He added there are nearly a dozen milestones that must be completed before the Max returns to service."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boe...4vhB1pszYTxVWU

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bus...nuary-n1102851
So Boeing is to suspend production of the MAX.
The bean counters won and... then everyone else lost heavily.
Sad day for the workers, professionals led by idiots.
It's difficult to look up to a management who created this catastrophe.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Not surprising, Boeing has said for months this would happen if the plane wasn't back in the air by end of the year.

Many of the management who created the MAX left the company before the MAX had first flight and delivery, I kind of think in part that might be why the board of directors hasn't fired the CEO and some other top management, the management who oversaw the approval and design of the MAX left before first flight.

If only Boeing at the time went with their initial plans to build a clean sheet aircraft, only reason the MAX even exists is because once Airbus announced the A320 NEO series, airlines didn't want to wait for Boeing to design an all new plane and wanted an improved 737, but hindsight is always 20/20, I do find it rather interesting more than one executive left before first flight and before the crap hit the fan, wonder if they knew it would become an issue and wanted out before it did.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Very sound thinking!

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

At least for now Boeing isn't going to lay anyone off due to this, they plan to shift employees to other areas or continue other 737 related work.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Looks a bit too late for Boeing to "protect their reputation": https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/...hoo&yptr=yahoo

“While gathering with friends and family during the holidays, employees are likely to participate in conversations about the company and the 737 Max situation,” the missive says. “Reminders about informal conversations: All Boeing employees share the responsibility to protect the company’s reputation, even though you are not an official spokesperson."

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing is quickly becoming the company that seems unable to get anything right...
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boein...134802433.html

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing fires CEO Dennis Muilenburg. The only surprise is that this has taken so long.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/23/boei...ax-crisis.html

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Guess he knows a few secrets. Interesting to see what his exit package is, perhaps they'll give him his own personal 737MAX to keep in his garage because he won't dare fly in it.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I am not too confident in who they chose as the replacement, he doesn't appear to have any real aerospace back ground beyond sitting on the board of directors and has a degree in accounting, that is what ultimately led to this mess which started before Mullenburg took the helm, bean counters with no aerospace experience should not be in charge of a large aerospace company.

But this could also just be a temporary appointment in a way to guide the company through the mess, a transitional type CEO.

The grounding is estimated to cause a 0.4% reduction in U.S. gross domestic product. Looks like the Secretary of Transportation is willing to intervene with any pressures the FAA may face to speed the process up.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKBN1YO2G3

Ryan Air has chosen the stance of we are not going to tell passengers what kind of airplane they are on, and will not refund customers who refuse to fly the MAX once it's back in service.

I will be interested to see how US airlines handle the aircraft type once its in the air again, previously some noted it has 737-MAX or some variation of that and it stood out, my guess is at least one US airline will go the route of using less obvious code, 738 is what most use for the 737-800 NG, so wont be surprised if 737-8 pops up for the MAX version, or 7M8 which is more obvious but as obvious at MAX in the name.

Once in the air if the plane can go over 2 years without an accident, I will consider flying it, but until then, I will stick to airlines who don't have any like Delta, 0 chance of getting a MAX when the airline has none.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Do keep in mind as well that Dennis Muilenburg wasn't in command of the company during the MAX approval and initial design decisions, but the new CEO was on the board when the MAX was given the green light and is an accountant bean counter like McNerney was who was the CEO when the MAX decision was made.

Dennis Muilenburg was career Boeing, and had extensive background in what you want in a CEO of an aerospace company, but he made his mistakes though with the MAX fiasco after the first accident, and his PR blunders, but it's not fair to put the entire issues onto him, he wasn't the one who was in charge during the development and decision to move forward with the MAX, I almost wonder if he had been in charge during that time frame if things might have turned out better in the end, the MAX may not even exist in its current form.

Seems Boeing is reverting back now to putting accountants in charge, they didn't learn their lesson it seems.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

This has become a Boeing thread... it's putting Boeing under the spotlight and stories that would normally not bubble to the surface become the sort of 'Can't they get anything right?' story.
That below is one such that has one shaking the head...
https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airwa...ack-to-the-us/