Originally Posted by dishwashing

Oakvillian, do you think all work places are like that?

Originally Posted by JonboyE

At a more fundamental level it is about power. Who controls eduction in the province?

Originally Posted by chan_konabe

Justice Griffin's ruling in the BC Supreme Court case said that the BC government does have the power to remove it, but needs to follow a procedure that guarantees the teachers' charter rights.

In the late 90's the NDP government told the teachers that they couldn't give them an increase in salary, but offered the teachers improvements to their working conditions instead (ex, class size, specialist teacher ratios).

In 2002, the BC Liberals stripped those conditions from the contract without any consultation or compensation. In fact, the teachers only found a couple of hours before the legislation was announced.

The heart of Justice Griffin's ruling (and the HEU Supreme Court of Canada case on which it was based - another BC Liberals contract stripping situation) was that if the BC government wanted those conditions out of the contract, then they should have bargained them out. There is a charter rights process that should be followed with increasing amounts of intervention if at an impasse: bargaining, mediation, arbitration, binding arbitration. Legislation should only be used as a last-resort, not the go-to from the start.

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

That's not research.

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Sorry, but that's not research either. I'm genuinely curious to see data on this issue.

Originally Posted by chan_konabe

It started in 2002 with the stripped contracts (BCTF, HEU). HEU fought theirs first up to the Supreme Court of Canada. It won. BCTF followed with their case. With the higher court's ruling, BCTF won in the BC Supreme Court. It won a follow up ruling with the BC Supreme Court this spring when it argued the BC government didn't address its first ruling. Against legal advice, the BC government chose to appeal the second ruling (note: even the right-wing BC Conservative Party recently announced that the appeal should be dropped).

The appeal will start this October. It can take up to a year for the ruling. No matter who wins, it's likely the losing party will take it to the Supreme Court of Canada, a process that could take between 2 to 5 years. If this is road we're going down, this won't be solved until 2018-2020, a long 16-18 years of unrest. That's too long.

Really, the whole thing needs to be sent to independent, unrestricted binding arbitration. The BC Liberals will be unlikely to do this because they have been burned in the past with binding arbitration (see Stephen Smart's analysis with CBC).



Neither would binding arbitration be popular with the BCTF. It feels that it has won back the full language of their stripped contracts. (See this analysis from a former Crown prosecutor)

From Justice Griffin's ruling based on testimony and redacted government documents:



and Justice Griffin awarded the following:



Don't be fooled by the presentation of this as a case of simple wages and benefits. Really, this is all about the BC Supreme Court ruling and its ramifications.

Either way, this isn't fair to the students, parents, and yes, even teachers who are trying their best to support education in BC as this fight is going on. Really, this needs to be solved soon, and independent, unrestricted binding arbitration might just be the best way.

Originally Posted by chan_konabe

They've already done this in the late 90's. In exchange of 0's for salary, the teachers took improvements in their working conditions (class size limits and specialist teacher ratios). All of this was stripped by the BC government in 2002 without any compensation. So the teachers lost both their working conditions and fell behind with regards to their salary (for taking the several years of 0's). This is at the heart of the current court case.

You can't blame the teachers if they are reluctant to make the same choice again.

Originally Posted by Oakvillian

Not at all. But the schools situation in BC is entirely like that. Both sides have argued themselves into a position where the leadership cannot back down without massive loss of face, and their egos won't stand that. I think it's a facet of human nature that people who successfully run for election (including politicians, union leaders an school board trustees) are necessarily egotistical creatures.

It is also clear that this is about political ideology and money, to an extent not often found in other workplaces. The tangled web of half-truths and disinformation being woven by all sides in the BC teachers' dispute makes it very hard for anyone to know what's really going on, but from the govt side it's about settling somewhere near what other public sector unions have negotiated; for the BCTF it's about wages, benefits and conditions which all pretty much boil down to money.

Originally Posted by JonboyE

I was listening to the radio this morning and one journalist gave a rather grim analysis for parents.

One of the issues in the court case is that the BCTF accused the government of bargaining in bad faith. I.e. they continued a sham negotiation when they had no intention of reaching an agreement because they had already decided there was a political advantage in legislating the teachers back to work.

The judgement in the Supreme Court found in the BCTF's favour.

The journalist quoted his "sources in government":

a) Legislation does not solve anything. It just kicks the can down the road. They might as well get this sorted once and for all.
b) Legislating the teachers back to work now will enable the BCTF to make the same claim. They need to show a commitment to reaching a solution at the bargaining table.

From "sources in the BCTF":

The BCTF cannot bargain working conditions as it would weaken their demand in the law suit that 2002 conditions be re-imposed.

I guess they might as well just cancel school for the year.

Originally Posted by Oink

Why not take some of your friends down to the picket lines and yell at the teachers to go back to work and stop being greedy bastards? Call your local tv news channel first though.

Originally Posted by prairiechicken

I am concerned enough having a child who's supposed to be in Grade 6. What about those with kids at high school, and especially ones who are supposed to graduate this year? I can't believe that the government, or the BCTF, is going to allow this to go on long enough so as to jeopardise the education of an entire province.

Originally Posted by prairiechicken

Private education isn't an option for us. We simply couldn't afford it. And neither, I am sure, can the majority of people.Exactly, we are fighting for a well funded public education system where every child achieves their maximum potential. 35% of tax dollars is spent on private preparatory schools not so in the UK this is aside from having faith schools. Nor does it solve the problem. For all that I'm a bit upset about having arrived in BC in the midst of all of this (and about the effect it is having on my own situation and family, which is an inconvenience), I believe in public education, and that good education shouldn't just be for the rich.

What's bugging me the most is the fact that apparently the actual children who are actually supposed to be in school right now have been forgotten whilst two parties try to prove a political point. No they are not forgotten in the long run your child will be better off especially when we have a cap on the number of diverse learners that are present in any class.It's not that I don't see that there are serious points that need to be addressed. But I'd like them to find a way to slog it out without holding the kids to ransom.We await the response from the government regarding binding arbitration. Remember we have a premier and a minister of education who are ill educated.

Originally Posted by RubyRose

[B]As we stand right now we have asked for binding arbitration ..