sunnysider

er, wow - so much in here but this is really going to test my awful way with the multi-quote. But I'll have a try in the interests of putting the record straight.

First, I have no idea what makes you think I'm a DM reader/fan. Far far from it. This seems though to be a general taunt of yours though judging from some other posts of yours so I don't suppose I should be too bothered or take it personally. Other papers are available.

Italian government inefficiency and the issues of public administration and jobs that aren't quite jobs are I believe well covered by many Italians, many Italian media, and the Cinque Stelle. I gather that there is an issue identified as the "cost of politics". I believe Renzi himself has pointed to serious issues with bureaucracy. Whether he manages to do anything about them is of course another matter.

I have not called Italians lazy in this post or any others - I have no idea at all where you got this from. Maybe from a self-erected stereotype of your own which you could then tilt at. I have no idea at all.

I also have no idea what stereotypes you are accusing me of peddling.



er, no it's not generally OK to rant and I wasn't ranting. My first para was a thanks to maybe1day for a solid example, my second was an honest recollection of discussing the pension issue 20 years ago (baby pensions made no sense then and no sense now - maybe you could explain them) the third a lot of straight and honest questions, and the last also an honest observation. I have indeed found that a fair few Italians don't necessary want to shine a light on certain things for foreigners. An Italian described it to me as not washing laundry in public. It's a fairly common human trait but maybe maybe more common in Italy. The example I gave of raccomandazione is genuine. I've been told things and then been told to forget that I was told them. (Not on here stress, in case you go off on another one)



And as for your virulent whataboutery (thanks again to the nice Italian who taught me this English phrase and the Italian equivalent whuch I have shamefully forgotten) I am afraid you risk becoming the worst sort of Italian stereotype yourself. I am well aware of Britain's dodgy public finances, its "funny money" and its decades-long addiction to credit and boom and bust economics where the booms often aren't really booms. But, he wrote wearily, this is not relevant and is off topic. It is of course relevant to a discussion of Britain's current state and there are many places on the internet where you could discuss it and doubtless add something to the debate. Please find them. Though I pray for your sake that you don't go there and find some Brit spouting "but what about Italy".

I certainly hope you have never sat down in front of a history exam paper. Otherwise, to a question such as "Describe the challenges facing Italy in 1945 and its move to a new republic" I fear that your long-suffering examiners would have been met with a rant along the lines "what do you mean, what about Britain - an economy on its knees, in hock to the Americans, a clapped out empire and a population suffering rationing well into the 1950s".

You might also care to check out my posts to ciquta's questions about possibly coming to Britain. Might give you a bit of much needed balance in your view of me as some sort of flag-waving Brit.

Is it too much to ask that this thread return to Renzi or to Italian healthcare and tests?

You still there Renzi? Or got bored and moved on? Or decided that you are in the clear? - no-ones going to watch you/the whataboutery decoys have been successfully deployed.

Maybe1day

My wifes' uncle (she has 6 uncles and 2 aunts) "The postie" has not worked since he got his pension which isn't worth much today, although I don't know how much it is. Another uncle who is a bit of an anomaly, has only a few years contributions and walks with a limp, he gets 650 a month since the beginning of this year. (67 Years old)
My brothers in law and their wives all retired early with full pensions, around 58 yrs old.
Ciquta - As an aside re long term unemployment, So someone who had been laid off at maybe 50 who cannot find employment after 2yrs should get nothing..... Then he must steal or be dishonest to survive. In N Europe there are many who have never worked and recieve state aid all their lives. This is because they live in "Socially Responsible countries not ones that owe hundreds of millions in unpaid fines to the EU for non conformity to EU standards/laws and sentences etc. This is just for starters. How about getting a refund from the Italian state or state entities for services not received or that are inadequate. There is even a ministry where the employees contributions have not been paid. Why shouldn't people like Ononno get a reasonable standard of living? (And my mother in law with her 430Euros a month) Which cloud do you live on?

And double standard Renzi is still gaining a few more inches of rope along with the wooded reformer. Where are all the savings coming from and where is the under the table (unfair competition) real deal over Alitalia?
M

37100

Many people do not get 2yrs. Family member lost his job due to ill health. Due to several weeks of absense, off work ill, he was only entitled to a 12 months. 6 at 75% and 6 at 60%. Nothing more. And because they inherited a portion of a run down, unsellable shack in the hills, they are not entitled to any help with rent and bills.

ciquta

I totally agree about the scandal of the people getting the retirement before the 60s. In the 80s you could still get retirement well before 50, I know many people who did.
Thanks god (and Monti) this has changed now, we still have this debit to pay, but a retirement law by european standards.


I disagree about all the rest: unless you have disability you can't live all your life without working or working partially and demand to have a reasonable quality life (plus healthcare?).
Who has to pay that and how?
What do you get in UK after 30years of duties?
Is that enough to live there, pay rent and afford a good health care?

highlander1

Money is never enough, but I never saw any Brits living under a bridge :

Living money, people get by ( you get full state pension
with 30 years contributions )

Pay rent ? most people retired have paid off their mortgages

Afford good health care ? Good or bad healthcare is free for over 60 in England, free for everybody in rest of UK. Is health care bad? It is good when it ok with you, but I newer saw piles of bodies under bridges.

Lorna at Vicenza

I got 6 months but only because I had been working "in regola" for at least the previous 2 years and could of course prove this.

37100

Not all baby pensioners worked 15yr 6 mnths and 1 day etc. My OH retired before 60. Like most of his classmates he had start work at 14 because his family couldn't afford higher education.

ononno

Lots of kids down here have to find some sort of a job at 14/15, even if they shold still be in school. And of course on the black, no contributions. If you vist Naples, or any other sizeable town, you'll see them 'garzone di bar' running round with trays of espresso to offices and shops. Or the delivery boys running round to the palazzi with Donna Filomena's shopping basket of bread and milk. Quite picturesque, but of course not legal.ù
bye bye dicette l'inglese

HADENOUGHPIZZA

I think that the term is used to describe a specific category of workers who from 1973 onwards could retire after 15 ys + 6mnth , anyone who has worked from 14 onwards would be not be classified a baby pensioner just because of their age. It was Dini who put an end to it .

ciquta

Black doesn't count.
This is what i meant when i talked about people's fault in this situation.
Many still works legally for cheap, taking side money on the blak to avoid taxes.

Then one day they would pop in a forum moaning about low money for retirements and insufficents funds for health care.

ciquta

Dini just moved the limit to about 60, then Monti did the magic few years ago.

HADENOUGHPIZZA

In fact all I wrote was that Dini stopped the 15 yrs +6mnths rule. It was part of his reform.

Lorna at Vicenza

Some people don't take black money to avoid taxes - they take it to survive.

The very people who can afford taxes and bloody well should be paying them are the first ones to propose a lower fattura and a cash supplement .... dentists, notaio, window companies etc.

highlander1

modicasa

Nobody would work in black if they didnt have to, its the employers who insist on it, not the workers. So you either work or you dont. And you have to make the distinction between public sector workers and not - no non public sector worker could retire after 15 years. It takes 37 years of contributions for a self employed person to reach full pension.