Geordieborn

Modi may know better, but I'm pretty certain you would have to fill in a tax return even a zero return. But don't assume this is as bad as doing so in the UK as it may be very straightforward. I understand these things can be a bit daunting at times, but once used to it you wonder why you were put off. Of the searches I've come up with there is a WORD link here (if you have WORD or your browser can open it) which give a lot of information worth looking at. If you can't, get back and I'll copy and paste some of the useful stuff as I see it e.g.

modicasa

Theoretically everyone should fill in a tax return. As a non resident home owner technically you should do so, as your house has a theoretical income. In practise your IMU more than equals any tax you would have to pay, so a blind eye is turned. With ER you cannot earn a penny in Italy, so have no income to declare - which is why you declare in your home (tax resident country). in practise then, most ER s dont file a tax return here, but technically they should - you would need a power higher than I to give you a definitive answer!

Listen Very Carefully

Re the tax submission-what is taxed where is not a matter of choice This is governed by the Anglo Italian tax treaty If you are resident in Italy then you must submit a tax return detailing your world wide income and the nature of it ie savings pensions etc For example a uk govt occupational pension eg police teachers etc is always taxed in the UK and you get an allowance from the entrate to offset against any possible Italian tax In practice I paid no tax at all in Italy ,other than property taxes

Plan B

Hi,
Are you suggesting that it is possible to have "Elective Residency" (which I had not heard of) in Italy, but pay taxes elsewhere? As I am an Italian resident I assumed that I had to pay tax in Italy.

Casagialla

Elective residence for tax perposes is what I am trying to determine. It also seems that there is such a thing as dual residence.! Before Brexit if you spent more than 90 days in Italy i.e for the summer you had to apply for residency and many people did, There was no requirement for them to give up there residence in another EU country therefore they must be Dual residence at least that's my thinking

Geordieborn

Yes! It's always been there and many non-EU residents have it e.g. American & Canadian, I was also told even when in the EU we could have applied for it.

C.2s

It's important to understand that word "residency" has a number of different meanings in everyday speech that are not the same in technical terms:

Meaning 1. You referred to the requirement to register your 'residency' at your local commune if you spend (or intend to spend) more than 90 days residing there. This applies to everyone in Italy, including Italians, and is part of Italian laws/life and in now way connected to Brexit.

Meaning 2. Tax 'residency' has always has been different. The UK has a questionnaire that establishes your 'ties' to the UK and (pre-Brexit) if you had enough of them you could pay tax in the UK even if you spent more than 90 days residing in Italy. I don't know the situation after Brexit ...I don't think it has changed...but someone else can probably confirm this.

Meaning 3. Health 'residency'...this is a bit murky...the NHS says you are automatically covered if you are resident in the UK...but trying to find a definition of 'resident' for the NHS is a bit difficult. I think it probably means you're registered for tax, have a home there, pay National Insurance...but the NHS will treat people who have no evidence of any of these things (homeless people for example). Likewise in Italy in theory it is meant to be universal cover...but....

Meaning 4: people often mistakenly mix-up 'residency' and 'citizenship'...it is certainly possible to people to have dual citizenship...but I don't think that necessarily determines the other types of 'residency'...where they pay tax for example

Personally I don't think this discussion about different types of 'residency' has much to do with the title of this thread which is is about people who are coming on holiday. They're not residents...as it says they just want to "stay" here for more than 90 days. I think some sort of reciprocal arrangement will get this sorted out but it's not really a priority for governments at the moment. Not being able to stay in your holiday for more than 90 days is a bit of a 'first world problem' ...we'll be lucky to have any holiday at all

Geordieborn

I think those that are in the retirement half here/half there life with a home in Italy don't quite see it as a holiday and ER is possible a way out for them. Then again I don't know if there are many of them and perhaps no one (government) will care. I do think it is early days to be too concerned, but then again we no longer own property there.

C.2s

Hmmm... I think we will all have to adapt to the new normal of post-Brexit/Covid times for while. They can still spend half their lives in the UK and half in Italy. But they might have to do that in two different 90 day periods. They shouldn't think that no one cares, but it's not exactly a terrible hardship is it!

Don't get me wrong....I do sympathise... but the amount of sympathy I feel is tempered by the reality that the majority of us have not travelled at all for over a year (so haven't seen relatives etc) and and don't see much chance of that happening anytime soon, and the other reality that unfortunately many people haven't been able to attend the funerals of people they lost.

Worried about the maintenance of your swimming pool or the length of your grass? Rather than spending time trying to find a way round the rules on how long you can stay, maybe you could consider employing one of the locals who have lost their jobs to keep an eye on it for you. It will still be here for you to enjoy in the future and you'll be doing something to help the community too

Geordieborn

I understand where you are coming from c.2s and we have to get things in perspective with 100,000 dead in the UK alone. But I don't think it is a clear case of swimming pools of the rich etc. Some of these people have modest places there and getting local people to look after it is not as easy as you would think. It is also a serious danger to have over grown grass in summer, vermin infesting the house perhaps and damp and mould making the house a nightmare to return to. And don't even think about the possibility of earthquake damage. Thinking about it all, some of these are the reason we sold there and would not buy again, Brexit looming being one of the main reasons.

modicasa

Casagialla - are you inscribed in the AIRE? If so, spending 5 months in Italyposes no problem and you will continue to be taxed in the UK.

jiminalpago

Elective residency for tax purposes is always seen as a challenge by a revenue collector - remember Valentino Rossi? - and requires getting lawyered-up, even for a national semi-detached from the EU, as UK nationals are at present.
For what it's worth, experience on the ground as a retired person, resident in Italy, with income arisings only in UK is that the A di E don't come looking for you; I have worked, very briefly but in regola, and pay my TV licence so they know I exist.

Casagialla

Yes I am inscribed in the AIRE, which I would have to give up if I became resident so I would not have consular assistance. Thank you all for you insights and suggestions but I don't think it I will apply as I think I would lose far more than I would gain. The IMU is not so bad I don't mind paying it, but the estero bank account that's not just annoying it's down right robbery!
Once again thank you, I know far more than I did before.

modicasa

Casagialla - youare inscribedin AIRE so can have a prima casa in Italy and lots of other benefits- Plus you are only here 5 months a year, so technically youspend the larger part of the year abroad. You are Italian so dont need to do paperwork when you get here, You pay non resident bank charges, but now you can open an N26 account, with Italian IBAN and its free. You pay IMU (if you own a house, but for the convenience of being Italian and resident abroad, I reckon it must be worth it. Trying to prove that you are tax resident in the Uk because you live there, but would like like to be resident in Italy because you don't, is asking too much!

Listen Very Carefully

I am talking about the Anglo Italian tax agreement which explains what income is taxed where If you are resident in Italy ( in my case living permanently until recently) then you are required to submit an Italian tax return The tax agreement is quite clear about what income is taxed in what country so a UK govt occupational pension is taxed in the UK any world wide savings etc or other pensions will be taxed in Italy Provided you follow the rules and do not try to work round them no one has a real problem It is when people start saying they are resident here to one jurisdiction or are resident to another that they create problems for themselves or try to save a few a few euros in tax by being furbo Basically you need to draw as little attention to yourself as possible but unfortunately some people just cannot help themselves and volunteer to put their head above the parapet