Originally Posted by morpeth;12900270 1)It is very curious how you can pivot away from addressing topics directly , bring up something irrelevant, and keep om ignoring the issue.

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It is relevant to ask in a society as corrupt as India why this wouldn't effect the drug industry.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".[/color]

Buy a dictionary.

“asking you if you support How is the opposition irrelevant?”

Irrelevant to the topic.


“How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?”

Irrelevant to the topic.


“Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?”


Buy a dictionary and pay attention to posts.


“4) We do not agree regarding corruption.”



Quite correct.



“I doubt that in any country including UK.”



Again irrelevant to issue of corruption in India. In any case India scores along with other third world countries with very high corruption, the UK much lower and within the range of the lesser corrupt countries.


“5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.”



No one denies the economic progress India has made in recent years. Not sure how many times one needs to repeat the obvious.

“You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.”



My comments were based on the preponderance of evidence by Indian and Foreign sources.

“6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?”

I haven’t said that, in fact the contrary on several occasions.

“Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.”

It is true I prefer to give comments on the topic being discussed, and for which solid evidence can be found.

“Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.”

There is also a lot of nonsense on line as well, and yes I prefer information on serious subjects from those who have studied a subject well and professionals in their field than popular press.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900412)

Again Morpeth you fail to quote a post in the accepted way on this Forum.

1) I have told you there are no present day concerns regarding drug safety from recognised companies.
I have explained to you that the present Government has reduced corruption at high level. Your statistics I presume are not capable of distinguishing areas of corruption.

2/3 What a ridiculous reply! Voting for a particular party in an election is described as 'partisan'---in that case I presume anyone in any country who votes in an election is 'partisan'.
Do you ever vote for anything Morpeth?:lol:

5) So ---- you refuse to believe about the new health system, food subsidies, bank loans------the solid evidence is that they exist and people use them.
We get gas subsidies should I put a copy of our gas card on here for you to read?

Yes the schemes are not perfect---health scheme needs registration at a bank etc---all do not know this, food subsidies etc need identity proof of Aadhar card , all do not go and apply for this---no offices in remote villages.

6) Where do you get your information from ----personal letters from those giving "solid evidence"-----Morpeth you decide what is or is not solid evidence on-line without the benefit of personal knowledge.
What have you got against TV reports and in depth discussions? You can decide for yourself the integrity of the people speaking.


(Considering the obesity of some politicians you can wonder how they fit onto chairs! --There --something negative for you to add to your collection!)

(Ganesh Chaturthi today -----Just had some amusing WhatsApp photos--------there---something else for you to be unpleasant about!!)

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12900477)

1) You present no evidence whether the drug safety issue has been adequately addressed, nor why if other areas of Indian society so corrupt why it wouldn't effect the drug industry.. Discussing your feeling about what you would like to be true doesn't advance knowledge.

2) Your constant complaining about the Congress party does give the impression you are a highly partisan Modi supporter, and your deliberate effort to regularly in most cases avoid any and all evidence if you believe it may have a chance of portraying Modi in a negative light. Maybe I am wrong, perhaps you are a highly objective person who carefully considers different points of view and seeks out expert expert evidence in addition to personal observations. Just my impression of a pattern similar to those who are highly partisan and subjective in any country.

3) Every time you start with someone 'refusing' to consider something generally refers to irrelevant comments, or experts disagreeing with you. What else can be said, on any subject if Indian and Foreign specialists on a subject have an overall consensus on an issue rather than consider their evidence you expect others to believe only anecdotal observations even if in contradiction to all evidence it is rather hard to resolve questions based on such ' logic'

I have never denied the type of benefits and subsidies you describe so why on earth would you imply that I have ?

I appreciate learning from many 'on the ground' observations you have made, for views unsupported or contradicted by evidence it is always interesting the thought process involved. Rather than television shows maybe reading actual sources and considering more serious reports could be beneficial.

.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900504)

1) Morpeth it does not happen that people give reports as to how good Companies are ---they -only report problems.
You refuse to accept or discuss that a firm such as AstraZeneca chose an India for its first contract to produce the Oxford vaccine.
Again you refuse to believe what i told you about low-level corruption as compared with government and companies corruption.
You keep on repeating out of date reports.

2) The Congress party doesn't have a leader---it is in total disarray.
Are you saying that it is not a dynastic party? Surely even you can understand father-daughter-son-son-daughter-in-law-grandson!
Nehru was in effect a 'dictator'---there was no opposition at that time.

(They do not actually at this moment have a leader! Mother Sonia has taken over.)
(I admire Sonia ---she didn't ask for this life--I have a heart rending video of the recently bereaved Sonia screaming "no" as her husband was dragged into a group to be chosen PM.)
I believe that Priyanka Gandhi could have lead the party, however her husband Robert Vadra has spoiled that for her.
Shashi Tharoor was another possible---on bail for a serious offence -----do you support him? :lol: I remember your previous comments.

Who would you vote for??

(I have never said that Modi is perfect ----as always you choose the wrong things to complain about!)

3) What you consider "experts" are often not familiar with the situations they are gathering statistics from, there are always opposing views---you choose the ones that fit your own views.
I presume you accept the result of a general election?

4) Politicians speaking in television discussions and arguments you do not consider actual sources?? Newspaper reports ----only valid if about some atrocity??

(Oh no---just paid statistic gatherers regardless of whether they have ever been to an area before or even in the country before----they are the ones you believe. I presume you know that people are also often encouraged/paid to give certain answers).

Happy Ganesh Chaturthi----(something to irritate you further!!)

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12900866)

Amazing how you cannot address issues directly or write irrelevant comments.


“You refuse to accept or discuss that a firm such as AstraZeneca chose an India for its first contract to produce the Oxford vaccine.”

1)Because as explained it was irrelevant to the question asked.

“Again, you refuse to believe what i told you about low-level corruption as compared with government and companies corruption.”

2) I go by evidence and logic. You have not provided either.


“3) The Congress party doesn't have a leader---it is in total disarray.
Are you saying that it is not a dynastic party? “
Read the posts I did not comment either way about the Congress party, you must be confusing this thread with another.


“(I have never said that Modi is perfect ----as always you choose the wrong things to complain about!)”

I complained about nonsense, or policies in a poor third world country that are wasteful of funds that can help the poor.

4) What you consider "experts" are often not familiar with the situations they are gathering statistics from, there are always opposing views---you choose the ones that fit your own views.”

I considered different of view from Indian and foreign experts who know more about the subject than you and I, and not a single 1 remotely supported your point of view.


5)“I presume you accept the result of a general election?”

I have no idea what this refers to.

“6) speaking in television discussions and arguments you do not consider actual sources?? Newspaper reports ----only valid if about some atrocity??”

Why wouldn’t one seek out experts on a topic that political propaganda ?

“(Oh no---just paid statistic gatherers regardless of whether they have ever been to an area before or even in the country before----they are the ones you believe. I presume you know that people are also often encouraged/paid to give certain answers).”

7)In the various discussions I provided various sources and links, including one by an Indian who did a two-year study on one issue, and included actual videos. Then I presented various sources who had studied the issue, sources both Indian and foreign, from different institutions. Your response was (a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family tells you. We have gone over this time and time again, it is simple- you prefer to ignore any evidence from any serious source. So, no reason to go over.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900504)

Happy Ganesh Chaturthi----(something to irritate you further!!)

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12900890)

Morpeth you still have not learned how to quote a post.

1) What evidence do you want? When you consider other countries dealing with India regarding pharmaceutical products as irrelevant. (Including a trade deal with USA said to be in the 11th hour!
See link at end of this post.

2) I gave you evidence of low level corruption ---I gave you evidence of previous Government corruption.
How is it possible to give evidence that corruption is far less? Evidence comes when it happens.

3) You stated in your last post that I complained about the Congress party.

4)) As I said you choose your particular 'experts' to fit your view.

5) You discount anything in newspapers----so I asked if you believe it when you see the result of a general election!

6) So in your view "experts" are not invited to appear on TV, or are quoted in newspapers. Do you watch Indian TV channels if not how can you judge?

7) I have provided many links in a different part of the Forum. You choose the 'experts' who support your view and discount anything else.

Morpeth anyone who actually lives in India will tell you about the vast differences in poverty in most States (not all)---the reduced corruption at high level, the advances in science and drug production.

You might like to look up the ever increasing medical tourism from Western countries to India, there is a special visa for it! (
Obviously the Pandemic has halted this.

India is having good treatment outcomes for treatment of Covid-19 patients. (I do not know whether this is due to very early admissions)
Remdesivir is being actively used. .

https://theprint.in/health/remdesivi...generic-versio


Again you bring up the window and relatives----'change the tape'.

As you are so keen to write about India from a distance why not stick to the title of the thread.

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901078)

You may wish to consider in the discussions I provided a range of sources both Indian and Foreign from those who actually researched and studied the issues-the response received was every serious study was wrong because of your hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

1) This is combined with the lack of logic employed. You saw you have provided "evidence" about corruption trends - did I miss some link to a serious report on the issue you posted- and further the perception or reality that the corruption situation has improved, doesn't mean that the widespread third world levels of corruption has disappeared- nor do I deny tat there may have been an improvement. But I can virtually guarantee you when the new year studies appear India will still be in the bottom half of world rankings along with other Third World countries- corruption rarely disappears dramatically in a few short years.

2) The issue is that consistently you are so pro-extreme in support support of Modi and constant denigration and of the Congress party, extreme Indian nationalism defending the use of armed force to achieve nationalist objectives and prestige projects while rejecting any serious evidence on most matters, does , raise an issue to what degree your objectivity is.

I bring up only the evidence you consistently use, by all means I welcome links to serious study.

3) As in any country if you rely overwhelming on general popular media and simultaneously reject serious study or evidence, conclusions or opinions thus derived may be questionable.

I have no reason to be pro or against Modi and his party, I have an impression overall he has done a better job on the economy from the news but also businessmen I have spoken to and a few economic surveys I have read.I can be reasonable objective as I have no personal interest or allegiance to a particular party there. You have indicated a very limited understanding of basic economics but strong opinions whether about India or Brexit- I admit I do not understand how one can not understand how one can have limited understanding of basic economic terms or even look up basic information but then have strong opinions.

4) I simply asked a question about drug safety in India,you haven't provided the slightest degree of evidence, even a newspaper report on the issue, either- so to me it means hard to ave an opinion either way, it appears you have a strong view it isn't an issue though without any reason to hold that opinion-

5) a typical example of nationalism. for the country - you reject to the word adopted- you have chosen to live in and have views to fit in better.
.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901103)

1) Morpeth this is a discussion Forum. I pointed out to you the differences of corruption a low level and political level. I gave you an important name.
You refuse to discuss just give out of date figures you read on-line.

2) Again you refuse to discuss. Are you aware of the General election result? Are you aware that the leader of the Congress party did not get a seat. Are you aware that the President yesterday said she was resigning?
Obviously the majority of Indian people voted in the present Government----how is that me being nationalistic?
Are those who voted for the Conservative candidates in the UK but those who voted labour not? (Or do you have to look it up in a book to answer?)

3) So only those with a degree in economics should be allowed to vote in a General Election??

4) For FFS Morpeth I gave you evidence of top foreign countries choosing Indian companies to manufacture their products.
Again you refuse to discuss. The use of remdesivir at this time is so important----yet you have no interest to even mention it!

5) No --Morpeth not "nationalism"---knowledge. (I do not need to "fit in" do you really believe people there do not have different views from each other --they are not 'clones')

I have frequently told you that I could write pages about what is wrong with India, as with your inability to discuss you don't even ask what they are---
just repeat the chosen statistics that suit your own distant view and views of business friends* ignoring anything to the contrary.

* Such people often do not know the reality of the lives of 'ordinary' people and can usually be identified wherever they are.:lol:

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901216)

This gets more and more strange.

1) You have made your usual anecdotal observations, and as usual unable to provide any support that is relevant. So I note your observations, and will be interesting future reports on the issue whether they confirm or deny your anecdotal observations. I would assume businessmen who have to deal with corruption in India more up to date than either you or I.

2) I simply pointed out the obvious that your posts would seem to indicate an extreme partisan position especially as you typically unable to provide evidence or reports supporting your position. I do not know why I would be expected about some trivia about Indian electoral politics that is irrelevant to my point to the discussion.

3) I asked a question about drug safety in India, and you keep repeating over and over about production happening in India, as if that is definitive proof one way or another. It is well-known the quality and safety issues fairly common in Chinese products, yet no one denies such problems because foreign companies can decide to produce there. Perhaps having an open mind might help in discussions Bipat. I asked a question for which I have no problem admitting I do not know the answer. You haven't given any evidence even one of your newspaper reports to say the situation has improved, or even any reason the situation may have improved. Maybe it has, but appears you don't know so why argue it has ?

4) It is hard to deal with this term 'refuse to answer' as (a) I have shown myself quite willing to engage in discussion with you (b) I do tend to disregard irrelevant trivia you insert into discussion ( c) or I explain to you why irrelevant but have to end up doing several times as you do not understand the first time. The only other explanation I can think of is that Indian English has evolved to quite different meanings than standard English hence the communication issue, I can certainly understand if you are around non-native English speakers perhaps that leads to some communication issues.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901253)

1) I provide you with 'facts' Morpeth. If you don't believe them or think that your business associates are the only knowledgeable individuals that is your problem.

2) An opposition political party in disarray and without a leader apart from the previous leader's mother is hardly "trivial".
It is reported on all news channels.
So supporting the other party as do the majority of voters is an "extreme partisan" position??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53887010

3) Morpeth I really wonder at the workings of your mind; why would reputable companies choose Indian Companies to produce their vaccines and drugs if they were not satisfied with safety?
You say that you do not know, so why assume (as always) that your out of date reports are valid.
Surely you listen and read about the vaccines being produced for COVID-19

One example for you with plenty of references to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum_Institute_of_India

4) Stating that anything you disagree with is irrelevant or that the poster cannot speak English is not discussion Morpeth!

(Perhaps you had better return to the thread topic, it might feel less strange to you.)
(Was just discussing past UK TV series with OH and remembered "The Jewel in the Crown" ---which I considered an improvement on the lengthy four volume book which needed editing.----it was all in English so OK for you to understand.
Do you remember it? ---was very popular at the time)

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901253)

1) I provide you with 'facts' Morpeth. If you don't believe them or think that your business associates are the only knowledgeable individuals that is your problem.

2) An opposition political party in disarray and without a leader apart from the previous leader's mother is hardly "trivial".
It is reported on all news channels.
So supporting the other party as do the majority of voters is an "extreme partisan" position??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53887010

3) Morpeth I really wonder at the workings of your mind; why would reputable companies choose Indian Companies to produce their vaccines and drugs if they were not satisfied with safety?
You say that you do not know, so why assume (as always) that your out of date reports are valid.
Surely you listen and read about the vaccines being produced for COVID-19

One example for you with plenty of references to look up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serum_Institute_of_India

4) Stating that anything you disagree with is irrelevant or that the poster cannot speak English is not discussion Morpeth!

(Perhaps you had better return to the thread topic, it might feel less strange to you.)
(Was just discussing past UK TV series with OH and remembered "The Jewel in the Crown" ---which I considered an improvement on the lengthy four volume book which needed editing.----it was all in English so OK for you to understand.
Do you remember it? ---was very popular at the time)

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901316)

You provided no facts to back your assertion that every study by Indian and Foreign source is wrong, zero evidence not even a link to a newspaper article. I really do not know if you understand what the words "facts " or "evidence" means.

1) I stated clearly several times I do not know whether safety issues have improved in India, you quote no evidence or report that it has..Again a comprehension issue, either you are employing Indian English with different meanings or not reading the posts. I do not know which.

2) Your comments on party politics in India was irrelevant to the topic being discussed.

3)Why would reputable companies produce in China with its quality issues ? Maybe the issue if there is one in India is if the company is small and bribes inspectors, maybe Indian managed companies don't follow proper safety protocols, or maybe the situation has improved, or maybe problem is foreign company thinking they can bypass safety issues by locating production in India but don't bribe the right people. I don't know and apparently neither do you.At lease I have no problem stating so.

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12901317)

1)I try to avoid Wikipedia as a source but all your link shows is a decision to produce drugs in India, 2) it doesn't address the prior safety concerns by the EU one way or another. I was just curious, 3) if I took prescription medicines, which I don't, just out of caution I wouldn't want products made in India or China, so doesn't affect me.

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12901324)

1) No, you do not know so you assume there are safety issues. I think it is you with the language problems Morpeth ----I must apologise---I had assumed you were British.

2) You made various 'accusations' because I supported the political party voted into power.
You stated the opposition problems trivial ---I gave you a link to show the opposition were even less capable of rule than the British labour party. Were you able to read it?

3) AstraZeneca the company with the contracts for the Oxford vaccine also now has contracts with several countries including USA- do you really think they and other British companies are deliberately bypassing safety issues?

You many be putting yourself and/or this Forum in trouble with libel issues Morpeth!

Just a thought---- were you able to read the links---as I said --do you have a language issue?

I suggested you get back to the thread topic of 'Inglorious Empire' Morpeth.