Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Again you ignore the response by pivoting away as usual

1. Drug Production: You repeat that there are companies producing drugs in India.No one denies that-doesn't mean much, China has all sorts of production but a consistent issue with safety and quality. .Nor did I deny that I haven't seen recent articles on the subject. However why not respond directly to the posts (a) is there any credible evidence or reviews showing the situation has improved so it is no longer a concern ? Maybe there is but if you had actually evidence for a contrary view I assume you would have posted rather than just Nationalist feeling (b) you haven't responded why one would assume Indian pharma companies and related government inspectors are immune to the high levels of corruption in India ?

2.The Space program requires a huge and ongoing capital investment, it just seems terribly immoral in such a poor country with tens and tens of millions of people in desperate poverty to engage in prestige projects. India of course not alone in chasing prestige projects, but like many third world countries the elite and nationalist justify such idiotic projects.

3. Bipat, no has denied the measures you refer to- but simply by any measure India has a tremendous numerical and percentage of population in extreme poverty, and by some social measures below countries in Africa, Indonesia and the Philippines. Hence simply the waste of money on a Space Program ( just one example) hardly seems justifiable except for those with little empathy for the poor or excessive nationalism.

4. Bipat, as you well know it isn't just me throwing out a few newspapers reports or basing the opinion on India's dire poverty on a few contacts- I earlier provided extensive and wide-ranging data on the subject from Indian and foreign sources of all types, companies, governments, universities and NGO's.as you will recall your only counter-evidence to support the rosy picture you try to portray to others was (a) looking out your window (b) what your family says.I even provided an analysis how the Indian government sets what is the poverty level close to what several African countries use as poverty levels. It isn't a question of being positive or negative, just what the evidence shows. If your love for your adopted country is such that evidence or logic doesn't matter I am unsure why you discuss the various subjects. I fully understand your desire to integrate in your Indian home.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

I am unsure if daily television shows and newspapers more substantive than the experts who have serious studied the various issues- and this applies not only to India. Does that mean no specialist on the Indian economy or history have a valid opinion unless they live there and review the Indian newspaper daily ? Absurd. Perhaps you should start a thread stating only people who live in India and ignore serious evidence should post.

That there some commercial value is not the same as saying the huge and ongoing capital investment is not appropriate for a third world country. What are the commercial profit vs the cumulative investment for example would be more relevant than simply some commercial revenue.

The issue clearly was not India not pursuing its own interests, but because of nationalism pursuing prestige projects at the expense of the alternative path of focusing on the poor.Nothing complicated just different policy options- one favors the poor, one favors the emotions of nationalists, often described by the media as Hindu nationalism.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

You may wish to read the posts a bit more carefully. No one denies there hasn't been progress in India, especially the last 10 years.

I have no agenda except to learn. What agenda could I have ?

And for intelligent discussion instead of trying to always accuse people of prejudice, why not simply read what people post, then comment based on what the evidence shows ? If I were to criticize China's treatment of minorities does that make me prejudiced against China ? If I point out that even after economic growth Indonesia continues to have serious poverty issues does that make me anti-Indonesian ?If I point out how backward America is among the advanced countries in terms of affordability or availability of medical care does that make me anti-American ?

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

1) The corruption rife in previous Congress governments was a primary concern of present Government and it is being dealt with.
I pointed out to you that AstraZeneca chose an Indian company as one of the first to produce the Oxford vaccine.
Why would there be reports as to how reliable a entire countries drug production was? There would only be reports of the opposite.
As I told you the four rogue companies were dealt with years ago.

2) Do you read posts? Do you read links?
I pointed out to you the space programme was started decades ago. To stop it NOW wasting past work, ending the careers of scientists.
Breaking contracts with the UK etc. (who don't find it idiotic)! Leaving commercial projects.
Do you know anything about the security requirements of India? Which space program helps.

3) Yet again you produce your dubious statistics (if you search you will find some statistic to prove anything!)
Why do you think India gives aid to African countries? Why is the Serum Institute donating half of its Covid vaccine production to poorer countries?

4) Yes there is still much poverty in the rural villages and large cities----you refuse to comment on the health program and virtually free basic food and subsidised gas.
Yes there is much to be done, your knowledge is just 'paper' statistics, often as I have explained, gathered in dubious or inaccurate way.

(Yes this also happens with positive statistics ---such as the including street vendors in the middle class list that I read.)

Do you read Indian daily newspapers? Watch daily TV? Visit villages? Travel on Indian buses/trains? Have poor people in your kitchen laughing about the new toilets built in the market to give the statistic gatherers something to write about?

Morpeth I have not "adopted" India---I do not have to "integrate"----will you please stop using these words.

I just have homes and family in two countries. Just as many in the UK have homes and family in the UK/Europe/ rest of world. As you post on This Forum I presume you have.

PS Just read your further posts.----
I have repeatedly said that I could write pages about what is 'wrong' in India.
You just go on and on about the same things derived from your distant view of who is an "expert" without any thought that multiple opposing views might be worth listening to.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

1) Drug Production Safety: You produce nothing to prove or disprove the matter either way. I am honest enough to state I have not read recent news reports on the issue, it appears neither have you. It is indeed laughable to say India’s corruption has dramatically changed in a few short years and every survey would indicate as with other third world nations still a major problem. It is not unreasonable to ask, again, how in such a corrupt country are we to believe such corruption does not affect the Indian pharma companies?

2) You have shown nowhere why the funds invested in the Space program have been recovered, nor explained why in a country as poor as India it should be spending anything on such prestige projects. As far as agreements with other countries, if India wishes to spend its money or provide cheaper services, why wouldn’t the Uk take advantage of that especially as the UK has such a negative economic relationship with India in the first place. And while there may be some or even many capable Indian space scientists, India has no universities as far as I know in top world rankings, so I assume UK’s contracts with India just based on lower costs.
3) So according to you all international organizations, domestic and foreign companies, universities, NGO’s all put out ‘dubious’ statistics but looking out your window, reading daily press and speaking with your family you have knowledge that contradicts every serious analysis that is out there ?

4) I don’t ‘refuse to comment on issues that are not germane to point being made, that isn’t refusing. In fact several times I have indicated such programs you refer to are beneficial.

5.) I am just being polite that the only reason I can find for your constantly ignoring evidence is that it derives from an intention to integrate in your new country. You chose it so I assume adopted was not an inappropriate word. However if the word adopted country somehow offends you I will try to just say your new or chosen country. Of course Modi's government will try to put a positive spin on things, but that doesn't change the very simple fact India is a poor country with no business with a space program.

6) Actually in past discussions where I presented a lot of evidence from people who unlike you or I have studied extensively, not always with the same views but consensus on the basics, you consistently were unable to produce information or sources except endless repeat the views of your family and yourself take precedence over any Indian or Foreign experts.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

1) I asked you why AstraZeneca had chosen an Indian Company to produce its vaccine---no answer.
What evidence do YOU have that it is such a "corrupt country at high level.
Are you able to understand English Morpeth? I have told you that Modi did not start the space program.

2) You have shown no evidence that funds are not being recovered.

"There might be capable Indian space scientists" Oh! how very kind of you to say so!
(Why do other countries USA, UK etc. accept Indian students for Post Graduate studies without question!)

3) Statistics vary with the people who collect them you believe what you want to believe.
Just think how many different statistics are being published regarding Brexit negotiations and about Pandemic cases!
How many times are you going to mention MY window MY relatives----at least the latter include university and military personnel.
Most of us, you will be surprised to know, can actually read and write.

4) So when discussing the poor of India, free private medical care and cheap food and gas, deposit free bank accounts are not germane to the point??
The poor I know seem to find these things important!

5) I didn't "choose" India. I married an Indian national who happened to be in the UK when we met. No he wasn't an immigrant he was there to do post graduate exam end persuaded to do a much needed UK job! You might be surprised ---he also could read and write.

So your idea is when a country has many poor (as the UK for example) no one should have ambition to rise above this?
In the UK children go hungry, are you saying we shouldn't care about the recent exam debacle and those that aim high?

6) 50 years of experience and hundreds of contacts in all walks of life at least give me an idea about a place where I have a home and the ability to interpret reasonable "statistics".

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

This is incredible! You give six answers completing avoiding the issues being discussed .

“I asked you why AstraZeneca had chosen an Indian Company to produce its vaccine---no answer.”



I clearly pointed by giving the example than many companies produce in China regardless of its reputation for quality and safety issues, Further I stated I hadn’t read anything recently on the situation in India on the subject in recent years, but apparently neither have you.


“What evidence do YOU have that it is such a "corrupt country at high level.”



Every single survey of corruption level in world countries for years has confirmed this, and previously I have provided links to these, India has by all accounts third-world levels of corruption.


“Are you able to understand English Morpeth? I have told you that Modi did not start the space program.”



It isn’t a question of understanding English but of relevance- simple my point is India is in no position to be spending money on prestige projects whoever started them.

“ You have shown no evidence that funds are not being recovered.”



True but you are the one trying to give the impression it is- rarely does any government space program anywhere recover the investment in such programs. Should be easy for you to find out cumulative expenditures for the Indian space programs vs revenue. I think you know it has not recovered all the funds it has required.

“Why do other countries USA, UK etc. accept Indian students for Post Graduate studies without question!”



For the same reason they accept students from other third world countries.

“ Statistics vary with the people who collect them you believe what you want to believe.”



You rejected ALL statistics from ALL experts both Indian and Foreign- with the only reason you yourself gave is )a) what you see out your window (your words) and what your family tells you (your words).




“So, your idea is when a country has many poor (as the UK for example) no one should have ambition to rise above this?”



There is not one word in my comments even remotely referring to someone not having ambition. And there is no comparison of the depth and breadth of poverty in a third world country like India and a first world country like the UK.







“the ability to interpret reasonable "statistics". In all prior discussions when evidence available that contradicts the impression you seek to convey about India you simply reject statistics do not interpret them.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Morpeth on August 15th I put a post pointing out that it was the 74th Independence day of India.
That post has been followed by an outpouring of 'bile' by yourself both general and personal.

1) I pointed out to you that there are generally not publications/saying how wonderful are countries drug production companies, it is only negativity that is reported.
You ignore that I told you about AstraZeneca's choice of India as its first site of production.
You still do not comment on what is an important matter and their recent findings regarding dose level.

2) I have explained to you that corruption was rife in the previous dynastic political Congress party. You refuse to believe that changes take place and that your statistics are out of date. Certainly at the very low level there is corruption---do your famous statistics take into account different areas of activity?

3) I put links for you.

4) You are saying that countries don't take into account the value of undergrad. qualifications?

5) If I ever mentioned those words you provide them each time you post. I have pointed out to you the breadth of my contacts, Do you expect names? (At least I can say you don't see India in reality outside of any of your windows.).

6) No you are correct- no comparison with a billion+ population.
You ignore the poverty of British children.

You ignore what I told you about basic food prices for low income Indian people. Free health treatment in private hospitals.
Another out of the window comparison----there are no homeless in my Indian town, there are many sleeping in doorways in my British town. (Same population size).

Yes I obviously agree that the large population of village people in India, and the seeking work in cities leads to gross poverty and hunger.
Unemployment in India is a problem----so you want all those in the space industry to be put out of work!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hild-poverty-uk-children-hunger-hungry-meals-low-income-families-benefits-a8848041.html

7) Morpeth you seek out statistics that will support your own negative views. It is always possible to find opposing statistics it depends how they are collected, who collects them etc.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

“That post has been followed by an outpouring of 'bile' by yourself both general and personal.”- I made a minor point about speech referring to import strategy, and then just responded to your usual Modi propaganda, that is not bile. You bring up as evidence repeatedly your supposed evidence is outside your window and family, no one else brought up personal issues.

1)” I pointed out to you that there are generally not publications/saying how wonderful are countries drug production companies,” I ignore irrelevant comments.


2)” I have explained to you that corruption was rife in the previous dynastic political Congress party….” So you honestly believe in 2 years the corruption culture of India has miraculously disappeared? Surely world businessmen and corruption watchdogs would have noticed this.


3) “I put links for you.” Nonrelevant.

4) “You are saying that countries don't take into account the value of undergraduate degrees?” I haven’t any idea how you dream up these things. I just pointed out the obvious, students from all over the third world go to fist world countries to study not just India; and that considering England has some of top universities in the world, and India none in the top rankings,

5) I have no idea your contacts except per your comments.

6) “No you are correct- no comparison with a billion+ population.
You ignore the poverty of British children.” You are perhaps the only person who would consider the depth and breadth of poverty as similar to what exists in the UK.I know other people who live in India Bipat I relayed your comments, that considered laughable.

7)” Morpeth you seek out statistics that will support your own negative views.” So interesting you never could produce any reputable or credible source offering contrary evidence.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Morpeth as you sometimes do ---you have messed up your reply!

To try to repeat ---I pointed out the date and Independence day---you replied with a negative reply about trade ----I suggested you put your Brexit thoughts on another thread.
I did not mention Modi.

Personal issues ----no one else replying on this thread lives in India -----how would they have personal issues.

(You may have noticed that local Indian people who attempt posting on this Forum soon leave.
(In the previous Goa part of the Forum even a Concierge left because of insults.)

1) A country with a company chosen to be first to produce a major British vaccine in this pandemic is not relevant to discussion about drug companies?

2) I pointed out to you there is corruption at lower level ---day to day transactions.
Presume that you are not aware of Congress party corruption and dynasty politics.
Why should you be it is not your country.

5) No you haven't ---so why the continued 'window' and 'family' snide remarks.

6) Living in both countries gives a ability to see both sides. Unlike you.
Obviously a billion ++ population will have far more poverty than 27 million.

I did point out to you the unemployment, the large town poverty (which includes the slums). etc.

You didn't reply regarding the food, health and bank provisions for the poor. I imagine the people you know don't have these requirements! Those we know do!

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

It is known that drugs are produced in India which proves nothing as to whether they are safely produced . There have been issues raised by the EU in the past. It is a well-known and substantiated the third-world level of corruption in India so it is a reasonable question whether this affects drug safety just a common-sense question.I specifically several time indicated I had not heard or read anything recently on the safety issue- thus can have no opinion on whether situation has improved or not. Asking the question is neither pro or anti Indian, Apparently you also have no updated information, but choose to have am opinion which appears based on the consistent partisan pro Modi Indian nationalist approach to considering issues. Neither of us apparently has any information to form an opinion, at least I can admit that.

It is a bit doubtful your objectivity in seeing both sides with your extreme partisanship and rejection of evidence.

It isn't snide to repeat what you have yourself, that experts can't be trusted, only what you see outside your window and what your Indian family tell you. And you apparently get offended when the rosy imaginary vision of India you portray of India is questioned. The depth and extent of poverty in India is well-known and supported by evidence,that the Modi regime has apparently improved the situation doesn't negate that any more that if the corruption situation has improved, that doesn't negate corruption still at third-world levels. That is supported by all surveys, and having been in international business for 30 years and in touch with both Indian and Foreign business people none have indicated some miracle has occurred the last five years. One contact, an Indian expert who I have worked closely with on a few projects, who is invited by universities and government in India and elsewhere to speak and consult with on such issues tells me that there has been some marginal improvement in recent years but the general level of corruption still at third-world levels and will take many years to get down to reasonable levels on a par with advanced countries. She did tell me her impression is that the Modi government has more officials who take the issue more seriously than the predecessors, and she supported the currency exchange moves Modi government made.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

1) Morpeth ---you still don't comment on AstraZeneca!!!
As you said "In the past"---four companies which were dealt with -the EU pointed out the problems also with particularly Italy and other EU countries.
As members of the medical profession and with multiple contacts the workings of drug companies are known to us.

What do you mean by "pro-Modi" ---he is the PM. Would you prefer the dynastic Congress party? Have you any idea of the corruption associated with this party? (I have told you there is corruption at lower level ---it will take many more years to end this.)
Modi was voted in in a democracy is that being "nationalistic"?
I do not like the deputy Amit Shah --Modi is aging and obese---just hope that the next PM will be Nirmala Sitharaman (Of course with your encyclopaedic distant knowledge you in the past have criticised her!)

2) Morpeth "miracle" in five years you quote one person.
Regarding poverty you just stick to your out of date surveys.
You refuse to comment on the free health system ---where else in the world including UK can 50% of the population get free private health care?
(Certainly in remote villages with no private hospitals this doesn't help).
The deposit free bank accounts allow those such as rickshaw drivers to buy new vehicles----others get TVs --house repairs etc.
Basic food also almost free-for low income.

If you had lived there 50 years and travelled and had contacts in most States you would know the sharp difference in poverty in the last five years.
As I said unemployment is the great problem and those from villages who come to cities and get day work or no work and have no Aadhaar cards suffer.
Problems for farmers as in many countries continue for a variety of reasons that are too complex to discuss here.

(We don't need to look out of windows now Morpeth the majority of the population have smartphones and whatsapp each other continually.)

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

“Morpeth ---you still don't comment on AstraZeneca!!!”

Because there was no reason to ,as I did explain several times.


“the EU pointed out the problems also with particularly Italy and other EU countries.”

Irrelevant to the question.


“What do you mean by "pro-Modi"

It is clear to anyone reading your posts tour extreme partisanship.

“he is the PM. Would you prefer the dynastic Congress party?”

Irrelevant to the question being discussed.

“it will take many more years to end this.”

Glad we agree.

“Modi was voted in in a democracy is that being "nationalistic"?”

Irrelevant to the discussion.


“Regarding poverty you just stick to your out of date surveys.”

Your lack of consideration of evidence just leads to fantasy. In two years, India’s dire third world poverty levels have not disappeared.


“You refuse to comment on the free health system”

Any evidence on whole subject of poverty in India you reject whether from Indian or foreign sources, so see no productive reason to go down the path of providing evidence when your only responses are )a) what you see outside your window (b) what your family tells you (c) people are racist if they disagree.


“If you had lived there 50 years and travelled and had contacts in most States you would know the sharp difference in poverty in the last five years.”

No one denies the economic progress India has made.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Morpeth could you learn to quote previous posts in the usual way?

1) It is not irrelevant ---What you refer to is in the past and the four Indian drug companies were discussed at EU level together with those from other countries.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".
How is asking you if you support the opposition irrelevant?
How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?
Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?

4) We do not agree regarding corruption.
I said it continues at lower level -----I asked if you knew about previous corruption in Congress party ---no reply. Have you even heard of Robert Vadra---just one example.
I doubt if it has totally discontinued at top level---I doubt that in any country including UK.

At lower level I mean going to an office to get your gas card signed, getting a death certificate, getting a legal document translated----
but you wouldn't know about ordinary life would you --it is not described in your research of statistics!


5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.

You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.

Can you not understand how important these changes are?

It is not "seen from any windows" ---- it is people in many States, many cities, actually knowing poor people ------not sitting in a chair searching for statistics.

6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?

Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.

Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.

Watch TV reports and discussions----you can see actual people with mouths going up and down and words coming out.

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

It is very curious how you can pivot away from addressing topics directly , bring up something irrelevant, and keep om ignoring the issue.

“1) It is not irrelevant ---What you refer to is in the past and the four Indian drug companies were discussed at EU level together with those from other countries.”

Totally irrelevant concerning drug safety in Italy and whether is an issue in India.

It is relevant to ask in a society as corrupt as India why this wouldn't effect the drug industry.

2/3) Is Modi the PM or not? How is supporting one political party over another being "partisan".

Buy a dictionary.

“asking you if you support How is the opposition irrelevant?”

Irrelevant to the topic.


“How can a democratic vote be irrelevant?”

Irrelevant to the topic.


“Morpeth have you ANY idea about Indian politics?”


Buy a dictionary and pay attention to posts.


“4) We do not agree regarding corruption.”



Quite correct.



“I doubt that in any country including UK.”



Again irrelevant to issue of corruption in India. In any case India scores along with other third world countries with very high corruption, the UK much lower and within the range of the lesser corrupt countries.


“5) I did not say poverty had disappeared I said it was far, far less over the last few years.”



No one denies the economic progress India has made in recent years. Not sure how many times one needs to repeat the obvious.

“You refuse to comment on the innovations for health, food, bank loans, extra disaster cash pay outs because Morpeth you know nothing about ordinary life in present day India, than what you read while sitting in your armchair.”



My comments were based on the preponderance of evidence by Indian and Foreign sources.

“6) You accept economic progress but not that it has reduced poverty?”

I haven’t said that, in fact the contrary on several occasions.

“Morpeth you keep putting posts but never give an opinion on anything except to refer to this or that statistics.”

It is true I prefer to give comments on the topic being discussed, and for which solid evidence can be found.

“Why not read newspapers ---so many on-line.”

There is also a lot of nonsense on line as well, and yes I prefer information on serious subjects from those who have studied a subject well and professionals in their field than popular press.