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-   -   Inglorious Empire (https://britishexpats.com/forum/india-169/inglorious-empire-932177/)

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 8:16 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12898311)
While states may invest in individual airports, aviation safety (training, regulation, etc) requires a nationwide approach, driven by central government. The argument is that State funds would be better spent on aviation safety (& other things) rather than on a space programme - no one has died on the space programme, yet. Something to think about next time you board an aircraft.

Did you read the above links ----commercial value of the space program.

Multiple lives have been saved by satellite advanced warnings of cyclones---enabling early evacuation of people.

(I think about death every time I board an aircraft---especially when pilot is landing too fast into Goa airport---(our nearest airport). Owned by navy).
As I said above often pilot is British on international flights (Jet --when it existed.).


There is much India could do about safety the most important being road safety-----the statistics for road deaths are horrifying. This has nothing to do with the space program.



India quite far down on this list
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-most-airline-accidents-in-the-world.html






Expatrick Aug 18th 2020 8:54 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898318)

Multiple lives have been saved by satellite advanced warnings of cyclones---enabling early evacuation of people.

You don't need a space programme to get that information. I can get that on my PC without leaving my sofa, for free. In fact I just did - using satellite imagery to track the next incoming thunder storm.

morpeth Aug 18th 2020 8:54 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12897957)
I believe Expatrick is an expert in aviation. It is true that different airports have very different infrastructure---some of this is under State control not central Government. Also monsoon conditions should lead to more cancellations.

Morpeth you constantly repeat yourself- Space exploration does not take "precedence" over anything I explained to you that after decades of work it should not be "stopped" "NOW".

Basic sanitation has had precedence as has health provision 50% of population free private health care now---!
Concerns over drug production -----again you are 'out of date' ---several years ago EU had concerns with countries such as Italy etc. and 3 or 4 of the many production companies in India, the latter were closed.
I presume you know AstraZeneca has arranged for the Oxford virus vaccine to be manufactured in India! The company will produce for Indian use and India will give 50% to poorer countries.

You are right I haven't read any recent articles about the issue of safety and drugs produced in India, though I noted some time ago your comments about a few factories that were closed. I have a relative who works for a big pharma company internationally who indicates where possible not to take drugs made in India or China- China because of poor quality control, India from the obvious issue of a country so corrupt that inspectors can easily be bribed and past issues of quality control.

As far as space program funds spent on it means less for the poor people of India of which there are so many both numerically and as a percentage of the country, and as definitively shown previously what constitutes poverty officially in India on a par with countries like Philippines, Indonesia ( both of which ahead of India in some social development measures), and even some countries in Africa.A simple issue. India can rent space on satellites for its particular needs much cheaper than the sums being invested in prestige projects.

There is nothing to preclude the central government allocating or providing funds to safety projects in the various states.

morpeth Aug 18th 2020 8:59 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898186)
Obviously those young people who want to emigrate should be able to do so! Just as British Expats do---just as you have!
As you say those that benefit the UK are doing so!

However they shouldn't have to to achieve their ambitions. Why shouldn't ex-colonies have ambitions? Why shouldn't students benefit their own country?
You totally ignore the scientific advances by India.

Could you explain how exactly the space program prevents investment by individual Indian States in their local airports!
Why didn't the space program prevent the worlds largest free health system?
What about the safety of advance warning of cyclones helped by satellites? Overall far more lives would be lost than in air crashes. (84 deaths even then this year from cyclone Amphan--India and Bangladesh)
You could easily use as an example the multiple road accidents during monsoon deluges---and flooding etc----why not States spending more on safety.

(As I said above --at the time Nehru started the space program I agree that it was not appropriate but decades later why do you resent what has been achieved, and the joint efforts with the UK. If that is not prejudice what is it?

Your constant attempts to attribute prejudice when others disagree with you gets tiresome Bipat and intellectually adds nothing to eh discussion.

The issue of the space program is very simple- in a country as poor as India and obvious safety issues concerning air safety, as you point out road safety, endemic poverty and public health issues- is it moral and rational to spend money on prestige projects.

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 9:09 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12898333)
You are right I haven't read any recent articles about the issue of safety and drugs produced in India, though I noted some time ago your comments about a few factories that were closed. I have a relative who works for a big pharma company internationally who indicates where possible not to take drugs made in India or China- China because of poor quality control,1) India from the obvious issue of a country so corrupt that inspectors can easily be bribed and past issues of quality control.

2) As far as space program funds spent on it means less for the poor people of India of which there are so many both numerically and as a percentage of the country, and as definitively 3) shown previously what constitutes poverty officially in India on a par with countries like Philippines, Indonesia ( both of which ahead of India in some social development measures), and even some countries in Africa.A simple issue. India can rent space on satellites for its particular needs much cheaper than the sums being invested in prestige projects.

There is nothing to preclude the central government allocating or providing funds to safety projects in the various states.

1) This is just not true. India is a major provider of generic drugs worldwide.

2) Did you read the above posts regarding commercial value of the space program?

3) I have explained to you before your statistics from those countries. Which other country has free private health care for 50% of population? Basic foods at special price----even we get gas subsidies!

morpeth Aug 18th 2020 9:10 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898141)
So young scientists with ambitions to work with a space program should migrate to USA? Lives saved by early weather forecasts are not important-----protection from unfriendly countries?
Well ----they are just non-Western, non-white people, just former colonies why should they have ambitions?
Combined space projects supporting UK ----not important?

British trained pilots have jobs with various Indian airlines (India the country with the largest number of women pilots).
As I said airport and safety measures are also at State level and military level.

(I agree that Naresh Goyal ---Former Chairman of Jet Airways---- a shameless man.)

Kind of hard to understand the relevance of the post. Early satellite warning can be secured without an internal space program, or without the more prestige elements included in the program.

In terms of projects between India and the UK, the UK is quite capable of its own space program and unlike India has some of top universities in the world, I am not sure what the cooperation consist of but I would suspect the UK sought to outsource some work cheaper, or let the Indians put up more of the initial funding- and considering the negative effect on the UK from the net economic relationship with India, would make sense for the UK to secure some additional funding from India. However the issue is simple- why spend money on prestige projects and not help the poor ?

I am unsure what the gender of Indian pilots has to do with safety discussion.

I am unclear which post you refer to where it has implied Indians shouldn't have ambitions.

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 9:15 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12898334)
1)Your constant attempts to attribute prejudice when others disagree with you gets tiresome Bipat and intellectually adds nothing to eh discussion.

2) The issue of the space program is very simple- in a country as poor as India and obvious safety issues concerning air safety, as you point out road safety, endemic poverty and public health issues- is it moral and rational to spend money on prestige projects.

1) Why do you always reply to any post regarding India with a negative often totally untrue reply?

2) READ about commercial value of space programme. Road safety doesn't need money---just laws and proper policing. (Poverty is decreasing vastly --)

morpeth Aug 18th 2020 9:27 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898341)
1) This is just not true. India is a major provider of generic drugs worldwide.

2) Did you read the above posts regarding commercial value of the space program?

3) I have explained to you before your statistics from those countries. Which other country has free private health care for 50% of population? Basic foods at special price----even we get gas subsidies!

Each of your points doesn't address the issues :

1. Drug Safety : The fact India is a major drug producer doesn't in itself 'prove' there isn't a safety concern to be considered. It wasn't that long ago the EU expressed the concern, and in any country where bribery is so pervasive it is a concern. However I did write I haven't read any articles or sources on the issue recently, by all means if you have any tangible serious indicating that overall drug production safety is up to international standards, and by some miraculous scenario the Indian pharma industry less corrupt than other sections of the economy, I certainly would be interested in reading. I presume another factor is who owns the drug producing facilities and whether international inspectors are involved. I don't know, do you ?

2. Commercial Value of the Space Program- proves nothing in a country with tens and tens of millions in dire poverty.

3. Poverty Levels- there is no disagreement about some measures to benefit the poor that have been undertaken in recent years. However the overall poverty level, that by some social measures of development India is behind Indonesia and the Philippines, and what India sets as the official poverty level is on a par or below that of several other third world countries including some in Africa, all point to the immorality and poor policy choice of spending money on prestige projects. ( I provided extensively before extensive data from Indian and foreign sources, from universities, NGO's, private companies- whether Indian or foreign- to support these comments. Your evidence of 'looking out your window' ,what your family says, or that it is only remote tribes who prefer to stay poor, simply not an 'explanation' of substance )

morpeth Aug 18th 2020 9:37 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898345)
1) Why do you always reply to any post regarding India with a negative often totally untrue reply?

2) READ about commercial value of space programme. Road safety doesn't need money---just laws and proper policing. (Poverty is decreasing vastly --)

Quote untrue Bipat, I have often made very positive comments about India's progress. As far as'untrue' comments I basically respond to.comments, and often provide the sources and reasons for the comments- you then generally ignore evidence and then write my comments untrue. And if you consider our past communications I am quite willing to acknowledge when I have misunderstood an issue, and have done so.

You present a Hindu Nationalist version of India and then get annoyed when someone brings up reality or evidence, and often you do not respond directly to issues at hand, or when you get stuck completely on incorrect claims you make, you then resort to stating or implying people are racist of 'anti-Indian'.

I wonder if you actually read the posts or instantly understand them through the prism of Indian nationalism.Has anyone denied there there may be some commercial value from India's space program ?

I have no for or against position about India, just as a major country it certainly is of interest I am against nonsense or unsupported portrayals at variance with reality. I l also have learned from your comments about current evens in India that I otherwise might not have learned.

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 10:09 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12898349)
Each of your points doesn't address the issues :

1. Drug Safety : The fact India is a major drug producer doesn't in itself 'prove' there isn't a safety concern to be considered. It wasn't that long ago the EU expressed the concern, and in any country where bribery is so pervasive it is a concern. However I did write I haven't read any articles or sources on the issue recently, by all means if you have any tangible serious indicating that overall drug production safety is up to international standards, and by some miraculous scenario the Indian pharma industry less corrupt than other sections of the economy, I certainly would be interested in reading. I presume another factor is who owns the drug producing facilities and whether international inspectors are involved.
1) I don't know, do you ?

2. Commercial Value of the Space Program- proves nothing in a country with tens and tens of millions in dire poverty.

3. Poverty Levels- there is no disagreement about some measures to benefit the poor that have been undertaken in recent years. However the overall poverty level, that by some social measures of development India is behind Indonesia and the Philippines, and what India sets as the official poverty level is on a par or below that of several other third world countries including some in Africa, all point to the immorality and poor policy choice of spending money on prestige projects. ( I provided extensively before extensive data from Indian and foreign sources, from universities, NGO's, private companies- whether Indian or foreign- to support these comments. Your evidence of 'looking out your window' ,what your family says, or that it is only remote tribes who prefer to stay poor, simply not an 'explanation' of substance )

1) Yes I do know. Why did AstraZeneca choose an Indian company for major production you might ask. As I said you are out of date along with four Indian companies, there was EU worry about Italy. As I have said before there are illegal backstreet pharmacies.

2) Commercial value? Other countries pay to have their satellites sent up by Indian rockets. How is that punishing the poor?

3) SOME measures?? The lower income 50% of population free health care in private hospitals! USA and UK would appreciate that!!! Basic foods and gas at practically nil cost. Deposit free bank accounts enabling loans for those such as rickshaw drivers to buy new vehicles. People travel, have good clothes. Could write a page about it.

Here we go again! My window, my family and you say you are not prejudiced!!
I read daily newspapers, see TV, have contacts with hundreds of people in different States, travel north to south, seen the great increase in difference over the last few years of my 50 years of travelling there. ----What do you do?----Just a few distant friends and sort out reports that suit your agenda and post your usual negativity (a polite way of describing it!)






Bipat Aug 18th 2020 10:30 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12898352)
Quote untrue Bipat, I have often made very positive comments about India's progress. As far as'untrue' comments I basically respond to.comments, and often provide the sources and reasons for the comments- you then generally ignore evidence and then write my comments untrue. And if you consider our past communications I am quite willing to acknowledge when I have misunderstood an issue, and have done so.

You present a Hindu Nationalist version of India and then get annoyed when someone brings up reality or evidence, and often you do not respond directly to issues at hand, or when you get stuck completely on incorrect claims you make, you then resort to stating or implying people are racist of 'anti-Indian'.

I wonder if you actually read the posts or instantly understand them through the prism of Indian nationalism.Has anyone denied there there may be some commercial value from India's space program ?

I have no for or against position about India, just as a major country it certainly is of interest I am against nonsense or unsupported portrayals at variance with reality. I l also have learned from your comments about current evens in India that I otherwise might not have learned.

There you go again--- 'Indian nationalism'---- at least you no longer call it Hindu nationalism:lol:. What other country should India do its best for????
If there is commercial value what is your problem?? Of course you have to use the word-- "some":lol:
How do you know the "reality" if you don't live there or travel extensively there?? Do you read daily newspapers and watch daily TV (and if you do --why??)



Expatrick Aug 18th 2020 11:41 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898362)
How do you know the "reality" if you don't live there or travel extensively there?? Do you read daily newspapers and watch daily TV (and if you do --why??)

There you go, the root of the problem. Pre Internet you would have got away, unchallenged, with your assertions. Now, however, we in the west have access to substantial amounts of information and informed opinion, largely from local sources. What is intriguing (& intellectualy dishonest) is that you insist that only those resident in a Country (part time in your case) and with copious numbers of local relatives can comment (on India) - then persist on commenting on European Countries, with whom you have no physical connection or direct experience, gleaning your little gems from the press, without the substantiation or intellectual integrity & rigour you demand of others. And, of course, if all else fails you then scream "prejudice".

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 12:12 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12898379)
1) There you go, the root of the problem. Pre Internet you would have got away, unchallenged, with your assertions. Now, however, we in the west have access to substantial amounts of information and informed opinion, largely from local sources. 2) What is intriguing (& intellectualy dishonest) is that you insist that only those resident in a Country (part time in your case) and with copious numbers of local relatives can comment (on India) - 3) then persist on commenting on European Countries, with whom you have no physical connection or direct experience, gleaning your little gems from the press, without the substantiation or intellectual integrity & rigour you demand of others. And, of course, if all else fails you then scream "prejudice".

1) Do you know which are the respected independent newspapers in India and which are financed by opposition party?
Did you know that Shashi Tharoor (even Morpeth has bad remarks about him) was employed to report by British Guardian newspaper? Which TV stations do you watch? Do you know who finances NDTV?
I put internet links for you to read. In fact the one above regarding Space program was BBC---thought that would be satisfactory for you.

2) I do have multiple contacts that are not relatives!! The people I have known over 50 years living in most States!

3) In the appropriate threads on TIO, I comment on EU countries, I have asked you for comments about what I read, you have never replied.
What is your opinion on the Polish recent presidential election ? On the demonstrations about homophobia of the present Government? What about the EU/EPP antagonism to Hungarian Government? I would be interested in your opinion.
I have not joined in the discussions on Europe apart from on TIO----Why are you commenting on this part of the Forum? What is your special interest (prejudice)?

I have repeatedly told Morpeth that I could write pages of what is 'wrong' with India. You both just argue about the wrong things.




Expatrick Aug 18th 2020 12:38 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12898388)
1)

3) In the appropriate threads on TIO, I comment on EU countries, I have asked you for comments about what I read, you have never replied.
What is your opinion on the Polish recent presidential election ? On the demonstrations about homophobia of the present Government? What about the EU/EPP antagonism to Hungarian Government? I would be interested in your opinion.
I have not joined in the discussions on Europe apart from on TIO----Why are you commenting on this part of the Forum? What is your special interest (prejudice)?

There you go again, another set of irrelevances
​​​​
I don't reply to you, because, under your rules, the Countries you mention are of no relevance to you and lie outwith your terms of engagement. Why do you insist on commenting on Poland & Hungary - prejudice?

As regards this thread I wasn't aware I needed your permission to participate. Having said that I didn't realise it was placed in the India forum but was seduced by the thread title.

As for prejudice you need to examine carefully your practices & motivations - before accusing others.

Anyway, I am out as a rational discussion with you is impossible!

Bipat Aug 18th 2020 1:04 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Expatrick (Post 12898408)
1)There you go again, another set of irrelevances
​​​​
2) I don't reply to you, because, under your rules, the Countries you mention are of no relevance to you and lie outwith your terms of engagement. Why do you insist on commenting on Poland & Hungary - prejudice?

3) As regards this thread I wasn't aware I needed your permission to participate. Having said that I didn't realise it was placed in the India forum but was seduced by the thread title.

4) As for prejudice you need to examine carefully your practices & motivations - before accusing others.

5) Anyway, I am out as a rational discussion with you is impossible!



1) Irrelevant? Answering your post!

2) Is India within your relevance? Why do you insist on posting about it?
I comment on Poland because in the UK I have Polish origin neighbours, I have had over the years multiple Polish patients that I knew very closely their lives. My daughter in law's best friend is Polish origin.
Hungary---as an early teenager became interested in the Hungarian revolution as living in Portsmouth at the time there were many refugees there and I met many (mostly young men--we met on trains when we went on school hockey matches!!) However their explanations of the situation could not fail to make an impression for life.

3) The thread title is Inglorious Empire. I have not seen you comment on that?

4) What practices and motivations are you referring to?

5) You don't 'discuss' just post something negative!





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