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morpeth Apr 25th 2020 7:59 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843752)
#

Indira Gandhi was responsible for far more atrocities than that! She was punished for it---assassination!!! You might remember that Margaret Thatcher was a particular friend of Indira!

The British were foreign occupiers for nearly 100 years. Until present day memory.
The famines killed millions.The apartheid, the poverty that British rule has produced has taken decades to eliminate.
May I ask how much time have you actually spent in India and how many States do you know well??

There you go again, the Mughals and many others were foreign occupiers throughout Indian history.

morpeth Apr 25th 2020 8:12 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843510)
1) No the vision I actually know----- not just read about in newspapers without any knowledge of the politics as you do.

Why are you so upset by the fact that the majority of the population follow Hindu philosophy. Is the UK Christian nationalist???
The government is certainly not anti-British.

Percentage in poverty?------Do you know the percentage of UK in poverty? Homeless--foodbanks-- etc.

Indians below a certain income limit ALL get basic food practically free---subsidised gas cylinders, free medicines and treatment in PRIVATE hospitals for 50% of the population related to income. Bank accounts without a deposit revolutionised the lives of rickshaw drivers, they could borrow for new vehicles-----just one example. Unlike you we talk to such people daily.

Yes there is still along way to go------how do you know what middle class think or do????
Yes as in UK there are billionaires who could do a lot more.

2. I have explained the character of Tharoor. Presume you have at least SOME knowledge of his diplomatic and political career!!

3) The British Raj was under the control of the British Government-----"The Jewel in the Crown"----why were they there----charity??
As I have said before relationships 'on the ground ' could be very good----British workers in India also suffered.

4) Yes I have seen the videos---Yes there was an under estimate of the numbers going back to villages. There have been similar stories in UK of landlords evicting.
I have pointed out to you the minority of Muslims insisting on large festival gatherings and increasing infection rate.
We have WhatsApp messages several times a day from areas north and south of India so we DO actually have first hand knowledge.

There has been international praise for India's immediate lockdown, travel restrictions. visa bans, police help and amusing people. Other forum members even in TIO have put posts regarding this but Morpeth just wants to search for anything negative!!!!!!!

No offense but it is weird what your sources of information in. I have no heard 1 single story in the Uk of landlords targeting NHS staff for evictions.No I didn't 'search' for anything, news stories appear on the BBC which I look at. I do not specifically look fro anything negative, I have often commented on many aspects of progress in India the last 10 years in particular. And yes I raised the question to get some first-hand knowledge.And my impressions far is India seems to me handling the Corona situation as well as can be expected.

No rational person would consider the issues of poverty in terms of depth and extent remotely comparable between Britain and India.

Bipat Apr 25th 2020 8:44 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12843912)
I think your post says it all Bipat, that you reject all historical and economic analysis by both Indian and foreign experts, and only hearsay,folk memories and opinions by people trained in history and economics. Furthermore , as you have indicated in prior posts, you only accept the folk memory of Indians as opposed to the British or other foreigners there at the time.

Many of the issues of the effect of British rule have been studied and much is still being debated by historians.So when you make assertions it is hard often to accept when they contradict evidence, or do not acknowledge areas that are still unclear- but your response to any evidence that contradicts your ideological viewpoint, your only response is evidence of what you have heard from your family.

That the Indian economy grew during British rule is accepted by any serious economist or historian, just as it didn't grow as fast as most Western countries.This was equally the case for Asian countries that were not colonized (eg. Iran, Thailand). Equally regardless of the motivations, the English establish transportation and communication advances which cost far more than any taxation revenue sent to Britain ( the majority of tax revenue was spent in India), and in 1947 India had the strongest industrial base of any country in Asia. The growth in population during British rule was significant, obviously having an effect on living standards, though there appears some debate as to the extent of per capita income growth as opposed to absolute growth. There is ongoing debate on the effect of this or that British economic policy, such as the effect on the textile industry in India, just as one can debate Indian policies the first 30 years of independence.Of coruse for an overall assessment one should consider the 'what if' question of what India was like before the British and what India may have turned out like without British rule The Mughal Empire by the 198th century hardly a stellar example of a progressive and stable rulers who were on teh verge of prompting a scientific and industrial revolution.

So when you throw out comments about British taxation, it would seem normal to determine what that taxation was, where it was spent, how significant it was in terms of the overall economy etc etc. When I provided actual statistics concerning this, instead of disputing with evidence or logic, the response as usual is that based on family recollections only, taxation was excessive and drained wealth from India. This recent post confirms that approach to analysis.

My mother was in British India, and from correspondence and discussion I know the efforts she made to train Indian medical personnel, and the care she put into her work and care for the people, and her views of the benefits the British were giving the Indians. She also was in India in the late 1960's , and I was there as a child, and had a basis for comparison. My father also was in India numerous times in the 1940's through the 1980's, and I have very close Indian and Pakistani friends whose families lived during the British Raj and built significant enterprises dating back to the early 20th century, in banking and textiles. Surely such anecdotal evidence provided from conversation is useful, but certainly for a full understanding one would want to consider the views of historians and economists even if they were born after 1947.

However it is helpful for this thread to understand why you reject any serious analysis as a basis for opinion.

So the memories of indigenous India people are "folk memory"------including those still alive such OH (at this moment Whatsapping to a neighbour, whatever they are discussing is 'hearsay' ----wonder why they are wasting their time!!
I presume the family salt pans were not put out of use by the British they were not taxed, small owners did not starve---OH's father did not have to sell land to finance his children's education at great cost in colleges run by the kindly British.
I presume farmers all over India did not have their land taken, vast quantities of grain exported, cotton etc. nothing to store for famines!!!!!

In contrast certainly the memories of your mother a non-indigenous Indian are valuable because she is British.




Bipat Apr 25th 2020 8:48 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12843913)
There you go again, the Mughals and many others were foreign occupiers throughout Indian history.

I pointed out that the British were there within living memory.

(That means It is possible to discuss the occupation with people who remember it! not just read about in books written by people who have read other books by people who read books!!)

morpeth Apr 25th 2020 8:54 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843930)
So the memories of indigenous India people are "folk memory"------including those still alive such OH (at this moment Whatsapping to a neighbour, whatever they are discussing is 'hearsay' ----wonder why they are wasting their time!!
I presume the family salt pans were not put out of use by the British they were not taxed, small owners did not starve---OH's father did not have to sell land to finance his children's education at great cost in colleges run by the kindly British.
I presume farmers all over India did not have their land taken, vast quantities of grain exported, cotton etc. nothing to store for famines!!!!!

In contrast certainly the memories of your mother a non-indigenous Indian are valuable because she is British.

No one denies there were taxes, no one denies that there were negative as well as positive policies then-or now.Again you avoid the central point, that repeatedly you avoid any serious evidence beyond family recollections, or that you are willing to consider different points of view. I have a very close friend whose family set up a substantial business in 1910 in India, and fleeing Hindu persecution in 1947 moved the business to Pakistan- certainly British taxation didn't preclude him making money !

One has to account for bias whether British or Indian, but the concept you have previously expressed that only Indian memories have value is hardly representative of someone with any level of objectivity.



Bipat Apr 25th 2020 9:03 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12843915)
1) No offense but it is weird what your sources of information in. I have no heard 1 single story in the Uk of landlords targeting NHS staff for evictions.No I didn't 'search' for anything, news stories appear on the BBC which I look at. I do not specifically look fro anything negative, I have often commented on many aspects of progress in India the last 10 years in particular. And yes I raised the question to get some first-hand knowledge.
2) And my impressions far is India seems to me handling the Corona situation as well as can be expected.

3) No rational person would consider the issues of poverty in terms of depth and extent remotely comparable between Britain and India.


1) Several such stories and government has banned such evictions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pread-covid-19
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/c...on-for-renters

2) Oh so good of you!!! :sarcasm:
There has been general international praise.
Just one example.

https://tfipost.com/2020/03/india-mu...t-coronavirus/


3) Do British poor get basic food for pennies? Why are there food banks that even nurses use!!
Morpeth my UK town of about 70,000 population, shop doorways people sleeping in duvets begging for money.
My Indian town of about 70,000 population -----I cannot remember the last time I saw a beggar or person sleeping on the street.

Certainly there are millions of poor and homeless in Indian cities there is a billion plus population.



morpeth Apr 25th 2020 9:05 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843930)
So the memories of indigenous India people are "folk memory"------including those still alive such OH (at this moment Whatsapping to a neighbour, whatever they are discussing is 'hearsay' ----wonder why they are wasting their time!!
I presume the family salt pans were not put out of use by the British they were not taxed, small owners did not starve---OH's father did not have to sell land to finance his children's education at great cost in colleges run by the kindly British.
I presume farmers all over India did not have their land taken, vast quantities of grain exported, cotton etc. nothing to store for famines!!!!!

In contrast certainly the memories of your mother a non-indigenous Indian are valuable because she is British.

I have said many times all evidence should be considered, not just from or another group, that applies anywhere in the world. My mother's memories are valuable because she was a professional caring woman with standards but also caring empathy for those she served which I also observed first hand in the 1960's, not because she was British, Yes because she was British I would have to consider her bias, as I would in an Indian observer, or my impression of your anti-British bias.

There have been famines in India throughout history, though there have been many criticisms by both Indian and British historians of British responses, though also considering the scale and particular circumstances I am unsure whether a Mughal administration would have necessarily handled better.

Bipat Apr 25th 2020 9:13 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12843934)
No one denies there were taxes, no one denies that there were negative as well as positive policies then-or now.Again you avoid the central point, that repeatedly you avoid any serious evidence beyond family recollections, or that you are willing to consider different points of view. I have a very close friend whose family set up a substantial business in 1910 in India, and fleeing Hindu persecution in 1947 moved the business to Pakistan- certainly British taxation didn't preclude him making money !

One has to account for bias whether British or Indian, but the concept you have previously expressed that only Indian memories have value is hardly representative of someone with any level of objectivity.

Morpeth you always have to use the word "family"!!!! Do you think that the only people I have met over the past 50 years are family members.
I also have eyes!!!


morpeth Apr 25th 2020 9:19 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843937)
1) Several such stories and government has banned such evictions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pread-covid-19
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/c...on-for-renters

2) Oh so good of you!!! :sarcasm:
There has been general international praise.
Just one example.

https://tfipost.com/2020/03/india-mu...t-coronavirus/


3) Do British poor get basic food for pennies? Why are there food banks that even nurses use!!
Morpeth my UK town of about 70,000 population, shop doorways people sleeping in duvets begging for money.
My Indian town of about 70,000 population -----I cannot remember the last time I saw a beggar or person sleeping on the street.

Certainly there are millions of poor and homeless in Indian cities there is a billion plus population.

Bipat it is useless debate with you to compare the depth and scale of poverty in the Uk compared to India since in prior discussions you reject any and all evidence from Indian and Foreign organizations , universities, governments and academia.

Your views may indicate why India has such endemic and pervasive poverty, that middle and upper class India and from a standpoint of Hindu nationalism or Indian patriotism ans sensitivity , just deny reality.A country where until a few years ago over ten percent of the population, by some estimates twenty percent, well over 100 million didn't even have toilets but defecated in the open. thousands upon thousands of day workers fleeing cities stating otherwise they would starve, hardly do circumstances in Britain compare.

Thanks for the links, I stand corrected that such idiotic landlords have also been reported here.

morpeth Apr 25th 2020 9:20 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843943)
Morpeth you always have to use the word "family"!!!! Do you think that the only people I have met over the past 50 years are family members.
I also have eyes!!!

Not at all but you emphasize often family observations.

Bipat Apr 25th 2020 9:22 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12843939)
I have said many times all evidence should be considered, not just from or another group, that applies anywhere in the world. My mother's memories are valuable because she was a professional caring woman with standards but also caring empathy for those she served which I also observed first hand in the 1960's, not because she was British, Yes because she was British I would have to consider her bias, as I would in an Indian observer, or my impression of your anti-British bias.

There have been famines in India throughout history, though there have been many criticisms by both Indian and British historians of British responses, though also considering the scale and particular circumstances I am unsure whether a Mughal administration would have necessarily handled better.

Yes I have repeatedly said that there were good relationships between Indian and British--'on the ground' ---
OH his late brother doctors, were caring with standards with empathy for those they served. Post independence they continued to treat British people in India and UK with the same.
We are discussing governments.

Famines throughout history -----weather conditions have not changed but nowadays there is care for the people no the total neglect as during British occupation.
Do you not understand that the conditions preventing storage of food made deaths inevitable?



Bipat Apr 25th 2020 9:36 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 12843946)
Bipat it is useless debate with you to compare the depth and scale of poverty in the Uk compared to India since in prior discussions you reject any and all evidence from Indian and Foreign organizations , universities, governments and academia.

Your views may indicate why India has such endemic and pervasive poverty, that middle and upper class India and from a standpoint of Hindu nationalism or Indian patriotism ans sensitivity , just deny reality.A country where until a few years ago over ten percent of the population, by some estimates twenty percent, well over 100 million didn't even have toilets but defecated in the open. thousands upon thousands of day workers fleeing cities stating otherwise they would starve, hardly do circumstances in Britain compare.

Thanks for the links, I stand corrected that such idiotic landlords have also been reported here.

Morpeth I wondered when toilets would come up!! I pointed out to you the wording on the census form that people said they had no toilets when they had good outside toilets.
Some of 'simple' origin/ancestry in rural areas still prefer to defaecate in the open'. State authorities are trying to stop this.
Yes there is still a lot that needs to be done.
As for middle class they see present day British bathrooms as rather primitive!
Certainly far more toilets than there were in 1947!!!!! Travelling in India with small children in 1960s I would 'dream' of a decent toilet.


You seem not to understand population numbers.
There are obviously thousands of day workers going back to villages. Obviously they would starve without any income, however the various State governments are giving payments.









scot47 Apr 25th 2020 9:52 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 
A few months ago I haerd a programme on BBC Radio 4. Reminiscences of British people who lived and worked in India, before and after 1947

I was horrified at the levels of racism expressed by most of the speakers.

Bipat Apr 25th 2020 10:56 am

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12843959)
A few months ago I haerd a programme on BBC Radio 4. Reminiscences of British people who lived and worked in India, before and after 1947

I was horrified at the levels of racism expressed by most of the speakers.

Yes it certainly existed.
However at the risk of personal knowledge being criticised by Morpeth it mostly didn't. The Indians knew that the local British were under their own government and British authority orders, and they mostly got on together at a personal level.
That is partly why so many emigrated to the UK ----they wanted to see what it was like! Also they expected a good response when the got there. As we know that didn't always happen!!!

morpeth Apr 25th 2020 1:44 pm

Re: Inglorious Empire
 

Originally Posted by Bipat (Post 12843949)
Yes I have repeatedly said that there were good relationships between Indian and British--'on the ground' ---
OH his late brother doctors, were caring with standards with empathy for those they served. Post independence they continued to treat British people in India and UK with the same.
We are discussing governments.

Famines throughout history -----weather conditions have not changed but nowadays there is care for the people no the total neglect as during British occupation.
Do you not understand that the conditions preventing storage of food made deaths inevitable?

You may wish to re-read my post as nothing in the post indicates I do or do not understand the details of how the famine was handled, therefore your question has no relevance except simply that India has experienced has famines throughout its history, and to judge the British handling of famines takes an understanding of the circumstances at the time-though as I have said several times it seems many who have looked at the period have been critical the British handling of the matter.

As far as governments while there were relatively few British civil servants in India, less than 5,000 at independence, certainly quite felt there were contributing to the betterment of the Indians and India whether you agree or not, and certainly an administrative achievement to be able to rule the subcontinent with so few.


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