bazzz

I don't think Andrew realises, but his own case undermines him here. He's an example of an immigrant who's managed to prosper in Canada despite not having an excellent grasp of English. After all, if a large proportion of your clients aren't either, then it probably doesn't matter that much.

Andrew Miller

Maybe you bazzz should take IELTS on academic level and see how you score it compared to my score, before making your comments?

I realize quite well my shortages in English proficiency, compared for example to someone who was born, raised and completed all education levels, including university degree in English literature in UK.

I'm not claiming any excellent English skills, but I have proven by academic IELTS test results high proficiency in English.

What article is about and what we are discussing here is not the difference between high and "super excellent" proficiency in English. We are talking about immigrants who cannot communicate in English even at moderate level.

Andrew Miller

Unfortunately you and bazzz have some sort of misunderstanding what IELTS is for in immigration (and not only) process.

IELTS and it's results are not to be used to determine if person can be an university professor explaining nuances of English language grammar and sentence structure to students finishing their Master degree program in English literature.

It is used to determine person's communication abilities in English, how well and efficiently person can communicate in English language environment and how it all measures up in standard, real life, work and school environments.

acer rose

I think you were the one that mentioned applicants originating in the UK who are unable to meet the language standard. I made the assumptions that there are relatively few monolingual Welsh, Gaelic, Cornish, Ulster Scots, etc speaking applicants and that by originating in the UK you were not referring to people who apply in the UK but originate from other countries. As I said, I've come across far too many born and raised British people who have a poor grasp of correct English but have yet to come across any of them who cannot function in an English language environment because of this. Does IELTS test ability to function or ability to study for and pass the test?

Andrew Miller

It is intended to test and measure the ability to efficiently and effectively communicate and function in English language environment.

I was not referring to people who apply through London but who's mother's tongue is other than English.

If you browse though many of my posts made here since implementation of IRPA and enforcement of requirement to prove language proficiency I strongly oppose any "expert's" advice suggesting taking IELTS to applicants born, raised, educated in predominantly English speaking country and who's native and often the only language is English. Those applicants will always be in much stronger position by submitting substitute evidence instead of taking the risk of lower language score due to possibility of poor IELTS results, regardless how remote such possibility may be.

Want2Move

I thought Andrew was a Canadian born and native English speaker. He has English name too.

MarkG

I haven't met many native British English speakers who couldn't function as a cab driver, or flip burgers as well as the usual barely English-speaking foreign fast-food workers in the UK. But there were plenty who'd have been seriously held back by their language skills if they had tried to do much more than that; somehow I don't think too many people would want their doctor telling them 'u got like cansa, innit?'

Even in IT, working with foreign programmers who weren't native English speakers but would still probably get moderate to good IELTS marks could be really tiring as we tried to explain complicated technical issues to each other. I can't imagine doing so with a native 'it's like a pointer, innit?' speaker.

The simple fact is that success in most 'professional' areas in an English-speaking nation is going to be highly correlated to ability to communicate in English. Obviously there are exceptions, particularly if you're working primarily with foreign clients, but in the majority of cases, if you can't speak English well (or French, if you live in that part of the country), you really can't complain if you end up driving a taxi; and bringing in large numbers of immigrants who will have to struggle to be successful while there are plenty of others queuing up from English or French speaking nations who could rapidly be productive is just playing politics with people's lives.

Andrew Miller

No, I'm not Canadian born - I'm an immigrant who moved over a quarter of century ago (while already in my mid 30's) out of Poland to California, with no English skills at all. But I did it on my own, moved as intra-company transferee with L1 visa from my company in Poland to my company in California. Learned English in California, added an American MBA and law degrees to my Polish Master degree in mechanical engineering, while expanding my business there. Then moved my family and businesses to Vancouver 18 years ago, after finding much better living and environment conditions here. Running my Canadian immigration firm out of Vancouver since 1991.

Miller is a popular name not only in English language countries. It is among 20 or so most common last names in Poland and also quite common in few other than UK European countries. I changed my first name to it's English version though.

Andrew Miller

Ditto here...

bazzz

I would consider appropriate usage of the word "the" to be pretty basic.

Andrew Miller

Are you still talking about my English?

Let me quote acer rose (post #30 in this thread):

"... not everybody posting on an internet forum necessarily takes the same care over their sentence construction and grammar as they would in a test situation."

And maybe, just maybe, instead of picking up on my grammar you should pay attention to what you have in your signature. I found posting the link you promote as being more than distasteful and probably even offending to many.

inquiry

"Maybe this is why the recently published proposed Regulations for CEC (Canadian Experience Class) have already washed out language proficiency criteria - for example to be eligible for the program applicant must have completed 2 years of post-secondary education and 12 months of full time work in Canada in skilled occupation, but must only demonstrate moderate language skills. Why not ask for high proficiency after this?"[/QUOTE]


"What article is about and what we are discussing here is not the difference between high and "super excellent" proficiency in English. We are talking about immigrants who cannot communicate in English even at moderate level."[/QUOTE]


Andrew I thought the topic was about immigrants who are not getting jobs due to not having English proficiency.

International students who completed Canadian education ( definitely in English or French medium and secured min. passing grades) and became able to manage skilled job and worked for at least 12 months would that not be enough to prove that they are more economically fit as immigrant or potential. Do they really need to prove that they are highly proficient in English to be eligible for CEC class?

If qualified International graduates need to prove that they are highly proficient in English to be eligible for FSW or CEC application then the same rule should apply for people who are born in English speaking countries to be eligible for FSW application. As there is no guarantee that these people will be a very good fit for Canada just by knowing good English. However, your opinion was like this:

"If you browse though many of my posts made here since implementation of IRPA and enforcement of requirement to prove language proficiency I strongly oppose any "expert's" advice suggesting taking IELTS to applicants born, raised, educated in predominantly English speaking country and who's native and often the only language is English. Those applicants will always be in much stronger position by submitting substitute evidence instead of taking the risk of lower language score due to possibility of poor IELTS results, regardless how remote such possibility may be."[/QUOTE]


So far I have read a couple of your responses regarding various issues raised about international students. For some reason most of the time you had passive for the opportunities which should be offered to IS. However, as days are passing unlike you, both provincial and federal Government are becoming very lenient towards retaining IS or IG. Canadian has learnt this strategy from Australian immigration system. Australia has been practicing this for couple of years successfully and in some cases offers more flexibility to IS to get PR.

Andrew you really should propose your opinion both Canadian and Australian Policy makers as what they are doing is not very good as per your outlook.

fuschiagirl

"What article is about and what we are discussing here is not the difference between high and "super excellent" proficiency in English. We are talking about immigrants who cannot communicate in English even at moderate level."[/QUOTE]


Andrew I thought the topic was about immigrants who are not getting jobs due to not having English proficiency.

International students who completed Canadian education ( definitely in English or French medium and secured min. passing grades) and became able to manage skilled job and worked for at least 12 months would that not be enough to prove that they are more economically fit as immigrant or potential. Do they really need to prove that they are highly proficient in English to be eligible for CEC class?

If qualified International graduates need to prove that they are highly proficient in English to be eligible for FSW or CEC application then the same rule should apply for people who are born in English speaking countries to be eligible for FSW application. As there is no guarantee that these people will be a very good fit for Canada just by knowing good English. However, your opinion was like this:

"If you browse though many of my posts made here since implementation of IRPA and enforcement of requirement to prove language proficiency I strongly oppose any "expert's" advice suggesting taking IELTS to applicants born, raised, educated in predominantly English speaking country and who's native and often the only language is English. Those applicants will always be in much stronger position by submitting substitute evidence instead of taking the risk of lower language score due to possibility of poor IELTS results, regardless how remote such possibility may be."[/QUOTE]


So far I have read a couple of your responses regarding various issues raised about international students. For some reason most of the time you had passive for the opportunities which should be offered to IS. However, as days are passing unlike you, both provincial and federal Government are becoming very lenient towards retaining IS or IG. Canadian has learnt this strategy from Australian immigration system. Australia has been practicing this for couple of years successfully and in some cases offers more flexibility to IS to get PR.

Andrew you really should propose your opinion both Canadian and Australian Policy makers as what they are doing is not very good as per your outlook.[/QUOTE]

Andrew Miller

Can you show my posts where "most of the time I had passive for the opportunities which should be offered to IS"?

As far as I remember I was always telling that foreign workers and students graduating in Canada are in better position to apply for PR and have it approved faster than applicants abroad applying without arranged employment. I always encourage potential immigrants to come here on either work permit or on study permit and to take the advantage of benefits available to them when it comes to PR process.

We have here in BC a PNP program for international graduates for years already, few other Provinces either already copied it or are about to do so.

What you mean by "opportunities which should be offered to IS"?

If you mean that government should force employers to hire international graduates then I'm against it - it is a free market my friend and nobody can nor will try to force employers to do it. If you have job skills and communication skills employer needs and wants, if you are better then the Canadian candidate then you will be hired. If you don't have what is needed or are at par with Canadian candidate then why employer should be forced to hire you? It should be left up to employer to decide about hiring or not hiring you.

If the above is what you meant by "opportunities which should be offered to IS" and my position against forcing employers to do anything of this kind then yes, you are correct - I am and will always be against such policy.

International students are already given the opportunity to graduate in Canada. The rest is up to them, just as it is for Canadian students graduating at the same time.

inquiry

"Maybe this is why the recently published proposed Regulations for CEC (Canadian Experience Class) have already washed out language proficiency criteria - for example to be eligible for the program applicant must have completed 2 years of post-secondary education and 12 months of full time work in Canada in skilled occupation, but must only demonstrate moderate language skills. Why not ask for high proficiency after this?"[/quote]

Sorry I thought that was passive statement as you were saying that international students/Graduates should be asked for high English proficiency even though when they have proved they can be a good fit for Canadian economy. Sorry for my failure to realize that that was an active voice for IS/IG Hope you will take that mistake easily my friend ( could not even realize when I became your friend; vice-versa)

Andrew, my friend/mate, by "opportunities to IS " I meant in terms of Immigration or PR processing ( I thought this is an immigration discussion forum and we were all talking about English language requirement):

- CEC application requires moderate English proficiency for IG/IS isn't that an opportunity for IS/IGs to apply for PR. Do they really have to have high English proficiency to be eligible for skilled jobs.( I know you are not happy with this requirement )

- Open work permit to IGs wouldn't you consider that as opportunity ( I thought you had an argument in one of your previous discussions)

- I might be wrong however, I have heard that In Australia certain IGs can apply for PR right after their graduation without any work experience as they did major in certain subject which are in demand for their local economy.If Canada implements that wouldn't that be an opportunity for IS?
"If you mean that government should force employers to hire international graduates then I'm against it - it is a free market my friend and nobody can nor will try to force employers to do it. If you have job skills and communication skills employer needs and wants, if you are better then the Canadian candidate then you will be hired. If you don't have what is needed or are at par with Canadian candidate then why employer should be forced to hire you? It should be left up to employer to decide about hiring or not hiring you."[/quote]


Who in earth is going to expect that Canadian Govt should promote more about hiring foreign graduates rather local ones? unless that person is nothing but an oxymoron.


My friend I am totally agree with you. It is a free market; employers choose candidate for a job who they believe is a right fit however, previously employer has only one choice hiring the local people. But,now the market is broad and diverse and employers has more options. It all became possible as both the current and previous government felt the necessity of skilled foreign workers and have been taking initiatives to retain the skilled temporary workers ( CEC, PGWP, PNP are parts of that) and fortunately and wisely Canadian policy makers are not only sticking one factor high proficiency in English rather focusing on overall fit.