OGSG

I'm sure you were talking from your own bad experience as it would be unfair to generalise. There are enough British cowboys out there to make a similar generalisation about them too. I believe the Polish builders, like German builders actually specialise/ train in a certain field in the construction industry and then come over to the UK and are expected to be the jack of all trades, whereas they are probably more skilled in certain areas than their British counterparts. There are bad apples everywhere. let's not generalise. Anyway that would be discussion for another thread

Rural Hungary

Totally agree, there are numerous Polish builders in Dover as there are in Ireland and I never heard a bad word about them. In fact, certain teams are highly sought after due to the quality of their work.

It's similar to some Brits who move to Spain, France, Hungary or the likes and having done a bit of DIY on their own property in the UK, they suddenly become a qualified builder on the flight over. I'm sure there are some unqualified Polish, Hungarian, Romanian etc "builders" in the UK but not all are the same.

Tapsony-Hungary

No not joking,
what you've written about the poles I would say sums up a lot of english builders. maybe we've been luck down south with the poles we get.

SteveNLisa

This info has come straight from Building control in the UK, The UK has huge problems in the building trade, it is about tim builders were licensed, supported by correct qualifications. Polish are no better, they have their number of rip of merchants the same as british builders. Do not be under any illusion that because you are using a polish builder you will be getting a better tradesmen. I have yet to come across anything the polish have managed to do well in trades, alot of them here seem to be in factory / warehouse work rather than a trade. Alot of Haulage firms will not employ a polish driver here in the uk now unless they have proved themselves, as their polish hgv license is clearly being gained without proper training as they have really bad accident rates.

Not sure what poland do for vocational training, based on what we see, it is not all it is cracked up to be.

Tapsony-Hungary

"licensed builders" more rules and regulations, paperwork, etc. sounds very Brussels orientated.
the British govt is trying to encourage more entrepreneurs, especially in small businesses, not stifle them
Polish people working in factories /warehouses rather than a trade, maybe they're prepared to work at anything rather than live on benefits, unlike - sorry generalization- the lazy Brits who prefer benefits.

Rural Hungary

Sorry to disagree but this comes from one employee at the building control in one part of the UK therefore, if true, it is a regional observance and you must also take onboard the employees personal biases. Further, in many cases is it most likely not their skills that are lacking but instead, their knowledge of the UK building regs.
Regards licensing, the CSCS cards are at least a step in the right direction, if a builder doesn't have a card, can't show you proof of training or previous work, then don't employ him/her.

I'm not sure if you realise it but your post comes across as somewhat anti-Polish and that's not what this forum is about.
Currently, I know of a Hungarian couple hoping to move to the UK to work. Wife speaks very good English, husband's is very basic but he is learning. Both are highly qualified with good work experience and yet, they are willing to work in a hotel, factory,Tesco's or similar just to earn money. Never would I imply that the aforementioned jobs are all that Hungarians are good for!

SteveNLisa

I dont think steve was being anti polish, im sure he didnt mean it to come across that way. He was just relaying what the building inspector said to us, which happened to be about polish, but not exclusively. There are many so called builders here in the uk that havn't got a clue with regard to uk building regs. unfortunately they (an i mean all ill informed builders of all nationalities) are all too happy to take on work and its only when the inspectors come round that it becomes apparent they havn't a clue what the building regs here are.
He also i'm sure wasn't implying that any group was only good for working in a certain area ie warehousing etc. Alot of foreign workers in the uk go into these jobs as someone rightly said they would rather be working than doing nothing, and so do alot of uk people My cousin who has just completed years at uni, is working in a bar, a lot of knowledge and talent is being wasted at the mo due to there not being the jobs available to trained and experieced people of all nationalities, so lots of people are having to take on jobs that they are far too over qualified to do just to be able to work.
Unfortunately how text reads to one person can be very different to how it is ment, or reads to another.
As much as i have a dislike of red tape, i do think that builders should have to take some sort of course to show they understand the building regs for whichever country they are working in and have the skills to complete the work. Then when you employ a builder you stand a better chance of being able to see what they can do and what they need to be subing out etc, so you get a top job that meets regs and cowboys are elimininated.
After all we wouldnt be expected to go to a dentist that has no qualifications but its ok they have been doing it for years but we have to put our lives in the hands of builders at their word that they know what they are doing and trust them that in a years time when the have been paid and dissappeared that you house dosnt fall down.

Rural Hungary

Hi hen, I think it read the same to a few but thanks for clearing up what he actually meant.

As Tapsony-Hungary said, licensing would mean more paperwork, rules etc that the cowboys would find a way round anyhow.... There are many British builders who either don't know or don't abide by the current regs and forcing immigrants to test on regs and skills before working in the UK would just not be feasible. I for one would be more concerned about doctors, nurses etc not being up to speed with UK practices, medications or indeed speaking the language and were money to be spent on retraining, surely it would be better spent in these areas.
What is the worst that can happen if you have a Polish builder who is competent but not up to speed with UK regs? In general, most jobs that could create a hazardous situation for a client are likely to involve an architect and planning permission, if the builder is competent, regardless of nationality, he will be able to build to the planning requirements. If he is a cowboy, of whichever nationality, he won't. The UK had problems with cowboy builders long before 2004 and the only thing that appears to have changed is that the scapegoats are now Eastern Europeans instead of the Irish.
It's the exact same in Hungary, last week my husband had to visit a project as the owner was concerned about some aspects of the work being done. The work was being carried out by a company with no connection to ourselves and who is apparently "reputable and highly recommended to Brits". On visiting the project, he discovered that new doorways had been created without the installation of lintels and he had to ask the builder to put lintels in. The builder actually stated that lintels weren't necessary with the implication that the door frame would hold the wall up!!!
So they are everywhere and of every nationality

Anyhow, time to get back on topic I think

SteveNLisa

CSCS cards are for taxation purposes only, they do not offer any assurance of any qualification in any form, they only show that a tradesman is registered for taxation. Licensing if done as we have for truck operators is very effective. You cannot trade in haulage without an operators license within Europe, if you run your company illegally, unprofessionally your operators license is revoked. Every UK truck is registered via VOSA with their operators license, if your truck is not on the database it will flag up on the ANPR systems and you will be stopped and your truck and cargo seized. In order to gain an operators license you must pass the operators license exam (CPC). They could effectivly do exactley the same thing with builders, no license, no trade.

I have no issue with the polish, they are hard workers in general, I did feel the need to point out the issues that we have with Polish builders here in the UK and I do not buy the 'polish trades as being excellent' based on their delivery here in the UK, Iwould view them as any other nation, a certain amount will be good tradesman and a certain amount will be cowboys, same as anywhere. I dont mean all polish builders, people should not assume they are assured of a quality job by nationality, any nationality! I did state that British builders were as bad. I believe we have a huge problem with the building trade in general and this puts peoples lives and homes at risk. Licensing would be the only effective measure to resolve it

Rural Hungary

The CSCS card is the Construction Skills Certification Scheme and granted it needs some tweaking and developing but at least it is as step in the right direction.

Anyhow, as before, time to get back on topic which was??? EU referendum

SteveNLisa

UK have used their Veto to block any agreement with the new treaty that the French & germany are trying to push through. This has put the UK clearly at odds with those of the Euro zone and created a fork in the road for the UK.

Hopefully this will bring a long awaited referendum to the UK

Tapsony-Hungary

cameron's response has created more than a fork but a ****ing big crater in relationships with the rest of the eu,
they were trying to sort out the finacial stability of the euro whether you like it or not.
the stupid man tried to ask for other things that weren't on the table, so not only wrong time and place, wrong stance, better to be included in all talks than be the outcast, who is now a laughing stock. British bulldog indeed more like the reproductive sacks, just playing to his loony backbenchers, instead of standing up to them, Lib dems just as bad, clinging on to power, in backing Cameron.
as for a referendum, what a waste of money,more people will vote for x-factor or strictly come dancing winner. lets go straight to a general election .
what exactly do you think will happen to GB outside the EU?
it's not going to be the land of milk and honey.

SteveNLisa

The cracks in this treaty are already starting to show with other member states. If the UK was to leave the EU it would then be in the same position of many other countries such as china for example, the largest economy in the world, USA & India also large importers to the EU. You do not have to be in the EU to trade with it.

The UK has lost 15% of its exports to the EU since being in the EU, how is the UK better off in the EU than out of it?

Cameron stood up for the interest of the UK, it is about time. Since his rejection of the treaty the conservatives have topped the poles which clearly shows he is inline with the voters.

The UK have more imports from the EU than export, if it came to ending trade which would never happen, the likes of Germay would take a huge hit on their GDP from their exports to the UK.

Anyone you speak to in the UK has had enough of the EU, this split will only continue to widen to the benifit of the UK in full support of the electorate. They are very set on ending the free movement of EU workers, agreed from both main parties. Which will proberly have a back lash on expats working in the EU. However their is simply no gain for the UK with EU worker migration which has to be addressed

John Gilbert

Check out The Times December 19th,

"What's it like out in the cold? Just ask Norway."

For the right to trade in the EU, Norway has to follow all the EU's rules on the single market on the free movement of goods, services, capital and people. Norway also has to pay 340 million Euros for access to the market & gets nothing back!

The British inspired single market it is said, directly or indirectly accounts for 3.5 million jobs. Cameron recently said "the single market already adds 600 billion Euros a year to our economy. He added, further liberalisation of services & the creation of a digital single market could add 800 billion more.

The reason many foreign manufacturers such as car makers locate in the UK is ease of access to the single market.

Norway is a country of about 5 million relying on huge natural resources. Britain is a country of about 60 million people with a complex diverse economy. We need to take a full part in the EU to protect our interests. We can not run out & expect to keep the benefits of the Single Market

The Little Englanders who dream of a return to a simplicity that has never existed need to think again. Instead of blaming everything on the "bloody foreigners" they should pull their fingers out & build their own lives for their children & grandchildren.

SteveNLisa

Would rather pay the 340 million Euros in comparison to the 45 million £'s we currently pay per day for being in the Euro.

China, India, USA are not part of the EU, China alone has more exports into the EU than the UK. The figures for being in the EU do not add up.

US accounts for the highest percentage of our exports, it is not in Europe. The biggest importer into the UK is Germany, followed by USA & China, so out of the top 3 importers to the UK only 1 is in Europe.

If the EU was working the top 27 importers & exports would be to EU nations, far from it;


UK Export 2009
1 UNITED STATES
2 GERMANY
3 FRANCE
4 NETHERLANDS
5 IRISH REPUBLIC
6 BELGIUM
7 SPAIN
8 ITALY
9 CHINA
10 SWEDEN
11 SWITZERLAND
12 CANADA
13 UAE
14 HONG KONG
15 JAPAN
16 INDIA
17 SINGAPORE
18 AUSTRALIA
19 NORWAY
20 POLAND

UK import 2009

1 GERMANY
2 UNITED STATES
3 CHINA
4 NETHERLANDS
5 FRANCE
6 NORWAY
7 BELGIUM
8 IRISH REPUBLIC
9 ITALY
10 SPAIN
11 HONG KONG
12 JAPAN
13 SWITZERLAND
14 SWEDEN
15 CANADA
16 POLAND
17 RUSSIA
18 INDIA
19 TURKEY
20 DENMARK

We lose out on more jobs as a result of Import tan if we were out of the EU, the figures of 3.5 million are a myth. Would like to know what sectors those jobs are supposedly in?