THE MEETING.
Dec 15th 2010 | 9:21 pm
#16
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 444
From: Goa & London
Re: THE MEETING.
I fully understand your frustration.
I wont attend another. My attention waned after two minutes, after being told there were no developments from previous meetings. Then to be told Kamat had given our rep. a body swerve. This said it all for me and my thoughts turned to the drinking time I was wasting.
I'm sure no one is holding back info., as has been suggested.
Davie.
I wont attend another. My attention waned after two minutes, after being told there were no developments from previous meetings. Then to be told Kamat had given our rep. a body swerve. This said it all for me and my thoughts turned to the drinking time I was wasting.
I'm sure no one is holding back info., as has been suggested.
Davie.
I agree - there was no real info, and certainly nothing new on the visa situation.
People who bought their property on Business or Employment Visas are having their Proforma details scrutinised by Kishore, but it was hinted that he will only be in that job for another 6 months or so (or did I imagine that part?)
People who bought on "X", Tourist visas or who have properties on rolling leases - no further information forthcoming from local or central Gov't as yet.
Pretty much a waste of time, as per previous meetings.................
Dec 16th 2010 | 1:45 am
#17
I love apathy!
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,248
Re: THE MEETING.
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to type out the 'events' of the meeting.
H.
Dec 16th 2010 | 4:15 am
#18
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,227
From: Noni the Indian Goan Beach Mulberry
Re: THE MEETING.
Apologies - Noni.
Re: THE MEETING.
Dec 16th 2010 | 1:52 pm
#20
Forum Regular
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 77
Re: THE MEETING.
I actually thought that you had given a good outline of the meeting. In terms of outcome there is very little to say. Have a good Christmas,
r
Dec 17th 2010 | 11:18 pm
#21
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,941
Re: THE MEETING.
OK, Ok - to be honest the overall mood of the meeting was so depressing that I couldn't face writing about it, but several beers later here is what I remember:
The Meeting
Peter Beckingham the Deputy High Commissioner introduced the team with him and opened the meeting with some general remarks, he said that he thought some progress had been made, but warned everyone that they wouildn't be leaving the meeting feeling good. He pointed out that the BHCI had to represent a lot of brits all over India, including handling several cases where there had been injury and loss of life, and also large companies like Vodaphone who had problems that could end up costing them billions of pounds. Our issues are also on the radar of the FO in London who have set up a special unit to deal with property problems experienced by brits around the world (Simon is to attend a liaison meeting with this unit in February). The Mumbai page of the BHCI website has a list of "approved" lawyers including some in Goa (I checked this but didn't recognise any of the names - a.f.d).
He said he had had two meetings with the Chief Secretary of Goa (a senior central govt employee), and two with A Kishore - he had an appointment to meet the Chief Minister (Kamat) but he was 'unavailable' for the meeting !!
He handed over to Simon Ferrand who said that BHCI are working on our problems - the websites are followed almost daily (I think he also suggested that GoI may read them - can anyone remember?) On the registration issue they have consulted lawyers on the actual meaning of FEMA and Goa's interpretation of it and on the topic of Govt of Goa had made some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
Simon clarified (as far as I am concerned for the first time - a.f.d) that BHCI would remove names and identifying data from the pro-formas before passing them to Kishore and only pass on names &c. with the persons permission if Kishore indicated the case was OK. Simon urged everyone to complete the pro-formas - particularly people on B/E visas - as soon as possible as Kishore will be 'moving on' in about six months. He felt that they were making progress and after B/E visas would be pushing next for X visa cases and only then for T visas (I personally have some reservations in that BHCI seem to be tacitly accepting that Kishore has the authority to tell the Registrars whether or not to register deeds, which imho he does not).
On the visa front Simon was emphatic that they have made very strenuous representations to the Ministry of External Affairs that people with property or businesses in India are being forced to apply for Tourist visas - and sign a Declaration - when the GoI's own rules state that we are not eligble for T visas. A couple of members of the audience pointed out that this applied equally to people on leases but it was clarified that this was covered in the case being made to GoI. He said they had had a meeting with the RBI (PB missed this meeting but contact is ongoing), topics covered included the unreasonableness of not allowing people to repatriate any profits when they sold businesses or property after being resident for a number of years - the RBI position at the moment was that you can only re-patriate what you bring in**.
When the meeting was thrown open to the audience there were several impassioned speeches from people who felt that we are being harrassed and persecuted for no fault. A lady from the back of the room reported with obvious and understandable distress that the DofE had just served her with a notice saying her property would be confiscated and she would be fined; she asked if other people had received similar notices and what she should do. N & M from Aldona told their story of similar harrassment and cautioned that the DofE tried to trick people and put words in their mouths - in their case they were told they had bought agricultural land and built a farmhouse on it, where in fact they had built a bungalow on residential land. The BHCI asked the lady to talk to them after the meeting, when it is to be hoped she received more assistance and advice than could be given in public. I asked why the BHCI approach was still based on the assumption thet the Goa Govt. would behave reasonably if peoples purchases could be shown to have been made legally since I had won my case in open Court based on reasoned arguments but the Goa govt had just appealed to the High Court. Richard made the point that the Goan authorities (now backed by the Centre and the RBI) were behaving as if FEMA 1999 did not exist and were refusing to acknowledge that foreigners resident in India could buy property, and were even claiming retrospectively that visa type was relevant when FEMA does not mention visas at all. (** The same applies to repatriation of funds: under current "relaxed" RBI rules a resident can purchase and remit foreign currency up to US $ 1,000,000 per year for any purpose; but it seems they only want to apply this rule to resident citizens - a.f.d). Another lady stated that the BHCI owed us all a Duty of Care - which elicited a rather bemused response. The meeting continued with many in the audience making clear their distress and anger at the harrassment they receive.
Simon concluded by saying there would be a further meeting - he preferred March but some people suggested February.
AndyD 8-)#
P.S. when I have time toassemble my thoughts I will try to write a summary of the current state of play as I see it (dire!).
The Meeting
Peter Beckingham the Deputy High Commissioner introduced the team with him and opened the meeting with some general remarks, he said that he thought some progress had been made, but warned everyone that they wouildn't be leaving the meeting feeling good. He pointed out that the BHCI had to represent a lot of brits all over India, including handling several cases where there had been injury and loss of life, and also large companies like Vodaphone who had problems that could end up costing them billions of pounds. Our issues are also on the radar of the FO in London who have set up a special unit to deal with property problems experienced by brits around the world (Simon is to attend a liaison meeting with this unit in February). The Mumbai page of the BHCI website has a list of "approved" lawyers including some in Goa (I checked this but didn't recognise any of the names - a.f.d).
He said he had had two meetings with the Chief Secretary of Goa (a senior central govt employee), and two with A Kishore - he had an appointment to meet the Chief Minister (Kamat) but he was 'unavailable' for the meeting !!
He handed over to Simon Ferrand who said that BHCI are working on our problems - the websites are followed almost daily (I think he also suggested that GoI may read them - can anyone remember?) On the registration issue they have consulted lawyers on the actual meaning of FEMA and Goa's interpretation of it and on the topic of Govt of Goa had made some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
Simon clarified (as far as I am concerned for the first time - a.f.d) that BHCI would remove names and identifying data from the pro-formas before passing them to Kishore and only pass on names &c. with the persons permission if Kishore indicated the case was OK. Simon urged everyone to complete the pro-formas - particularly people on B/E visas - as soon as possible as Kishore will be 'moving on' in about six months. He felt that they were making progress and after B/E visas would be pushing next for X visa cases and only then for T visas (I personally have some reservations in that BHCI seem to be tacitly accepting that Kishore has the authority to tell the Registrars whether or not to register deeds, which imho he does not).
On the visa front Simon was emphatic that they have made very strenuous representations to the Ministry of External Affairs that people with property or businesses in India are being forced to apply for Tourist visas - and sign a Declaration - when the GoI's own rules state that we are not eligble for T visas. A couple of members of the audience pointed out that this applied equally to people on leases but it was clarified that this was covered in the case being made to GoI. He said they had had a meeting with the RBI (PB missed this meeting but contact is ongoing), topics covered included the unreasonableness of not allowing people to repatriate any profits when they sold businesses or property after being resident for a number of years - the RBI position at the moment was that you can only re-patriate what you bring in**.
When the meeting was thrown open to the audience there were several impassioned speeches from people who felt that we are being harrassed and persecuted for no fault. A lady from the back of the room reported with obvious and understandable distress that the DofE had just served her with a notice saying her property would be confiscated and she would be fined; she asked if other people had received similar notices and what she should do. N & M from Aldona told their story of similar harrassment and cautioned that the DofE tried to trick people and put words in their mouths - in their case they were told they had bought agricultural land and built a farmhouse on it, where in fact they had built a bungalow on residential land. The BHCI asked the lady to talk to them after the meeting, when it is to be hoped she received more assistance and advice than could be given in public. I asked why the BHCI approach was still based on the assumption thet the Goa Govt. would behave reasonably if peoples purchases could be shown to have been made legally since I had won my case in open Court based on reasoned arguments but the Goa govt had just appealed to the High Court. Richard made the point that the Goan authorities (now backed by the Centre and the RBI) were behaving as if FEMA 1999 did not exist and were refusing to acknowledge that foreigners resident in India could buy property, and were even claiming retrospectively that visa type was relevant when FEMA does not mention visas at all. (** The same applies to repatriation of funds: under current "relaxed" RBI rules a resident can purchase and remit foreign currency up to US $ 1,000,000 per year for any purpose; but it seems they only want to apply this rule to resident citizens - a.f.d). Another lady stated that the BHCI owed us all a Duty of Care - which elicited a rather bemused response. The meeting continued with many in the audience making clear their distress and anger at the harrassment they receive.
Simon concluded by saying there would be a further meeting - he preferred March but some people suggested February.
AndyD 8-)#
P.S. when I have time toassemble my thoughts I will try to write a summary of the current state of play as I see it (dire!).
Dec 18th 2010 | 12:36 am
#22
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 8,227
From: Noni the Indian Goan Beach Mulberry
Re: THE MEETING.
OK, Ok - to be honest the overall mood of the meeting was so depressing that I couldn't face writing about it, but several beers later here is what I remember:
The Meeting
Peter Beckingham the Deputy High Commissioner introduced the team with him and opened the meeting with some general remarks, he said that he thought some progress had been made, but warned everyone that they wouildn't be leaving the meeting feeling good. He pointed out that the BHCI had to represent a lot of brits all over India, including handling several cases where there had been injury and loss of life, and also large companies like Vodaphone who had problems that could end up costing them billions of pounds. Our issues are also on the radar of the FO in London who have set up a special unit to deal with property problems experienced by brits around the world (Simon is to attend a liaison meeting with this unit in February). The Mumbai page of the BHCI website has a list of "approved" lawyers including some in Goa (I checked this but didn't recognise any of the names - a.f.d).
He said he had had two meetings with the Chief Secretary of Goa (a senior central govt employee), and two with A Kishore - he had an appointment to meet the Chief Minister (Kamat) but he was 'unavailable' for the meeting !!
He handed over to Simon Ferrand who said that BHCI are working on our problems - the websites are followed almost daily (I think he also suggested that GoI may read them - can anyone remember?) On the registration issue they have consulted lawyers on the actual meaning of FEMA and Goa's interpretation of it and on the topic of Govt of Goa had made some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
Simon clarified (as far as I am concerned for the first time - a.f.d) that BHCI would remove names and identifying data from the pro-formas before passing them to Kishore and only pass on names &c. with the persons permission if Kishore indicated the case was OK. Simon urged everyone to complete the pro-formas - particularly people on B/E visas - as soon as possible as Kishore will be 'moving on' in about six months. He felt that they were making progress and after B/E visas would be pushing next for X visa cases and only then for T visas (I personally have some reservations in that BHCI seem to be tacitly accepting that Kishore has the authority to tell the Registrars whether or not to register deeds, which imho he does not).
On the visa front Simon was emphatic that they have made very strenuous representations to the Ministry of External Affairs that people with property or businesses in India are being forced to apply for Tourist visas - and sign a Declaration - when the GoI's own rules state that we are not eligble for T visas. A couple of members of the audience pointed out that this applied equally to people on leases but it was clarified that this was covered in the case being made to GoI. He said they had had a meeting with the RBI (PB missed this meeting but contact is ongoing), topics covered included the unreasonableness of not allowing people to repatriate any profits when they sold businesses or property after being resident for a number of years - the RBI position at the moment was that you can only re-patriate what you bring in**.
When the meeting was thrown open to the audience there were several impassioned speeches from people who felt that we are being harrassed and persecuted for no fault. A lady from the back of the room reported with obvious and understandable distress that the DofE had just served her with a notice saying her property would be confiscated and she would be fined; she asked if other people had received similar notices and what she should do. N & M from Aldona told their story of similar harrassment and cautioned that the DofE tried to trick people and put words in their mouths - in their case they were told they had bought agricultural land and built a farmhouse on it, where in fact they had built a bungalow on residential land. The BHCI asked the lady to talk to them after the meeting, when it is to be hoped she received more assistance and advice than could be given in public. I asked why the BHCI approach was still based on the assumption thet the Goa Govt. would behave reasonably if peoples purchases could be shown to have been made legally since I had won my case in open Court based on reasoned arguments but the Goa govt had just appealed to the High Court. Richard made the point that the Goan authorities (now backed by the Centre and the RBI) were behaving as if FEMA 1999 did not exist and were refusing to acknowledge that foreigners resident in India could buy property, and were even claiming retrospectively that visa type was relevant when FEMA does not mention visas at all. (** The same applies to repatriation of funds: under current "relaxed" RBI rules a resident can purchase and remit foreign currency up to US $ 1,000,000 per year for any purpose; but it seems they only want to apply this rule to resident citizens - a.f.d). Another lady stated that the BHCI owed us all a Duty of Care - which elicited a rather bemused response. The meeting continued with many in the audience making clear their distress and anger at the harrassment they receive.
Simon concluded by saying there would be a further meeting - he preferred March but some people suggested February.
AndyD 8-)#
P.S. when I have time toassemble my thoughts I will try to write a summary of the current state of play as I see it (dire!).
The Meeting
Peter Beckingham the Deputy High Commissioner introduced the team with him and opened the meeting with some general remarks, he said that he thought some progress had been made, but warned everyone that they wouildn't be leaving the meeting feeling good. He pointed out that the BHCI had to represent a lot of brits all over India, including handling several cases where there had been injury and loss of life, and also large companies like Vodaphone who had problems that could end up costing them billions of pounds. Our issues are also on the radar of the FO in London who have set up a special unit to deal with property problems experienced by brits around the world (Simon is to attend a liaison meeting with this unit in February). The Mumbai page of the BHCI website has a list of "approved" lawyers including some in Goa (I checked this but didn't recognise any of the names - a.f.d).
He said he had had two meetings with the Chief Secretary of Goa (a senior central govt employee), and two with A Kishore - he had an appointment to meet the Chief Minister (Kamat) but he was 'unavailable' for the meeting !!
He handed over to Simon Ferrand who said that BHCI are working on our problems - the websites are followed almost daily (I think he also suggested that GoI may read them - can anyone remember?) On the registration issue they have consulted lawyers on the actual meaning of FEMA and Goa's interpretation of it and on the topic of Govt of Goa had made some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
Simon clarified (as far as I am concerned for the first time - a.f.d) that BHCI would remove names and identifying data from the pro-formas before passing them to Kishore and only pass on names &c. with the persons permission if Kishore indicated the case was OK. Simon urged everyone to complete the pro-formas - particularly people on B/E visas - as soon as possible as Kishore will be 'moving on' in about six months. He felt that they were making progress and after B/E visas would be pushing next for X visa cases and only then for T visas (I personally have some reservations in that BHCI seem to be tacitly accepting that Kishore has the authority to tell the Registrars whether or not to register deeds, which imho he does not).
On the visa front Simon was emphatic that they have made very strenuous representations to the Ministry of External Affairs that people with property or businesses in India are being forced to apply for Tourist visas - and sign a Declaration - when the GoI's own rules state that we are not eligble for T visas. A couple of members of the audience pointed out that this applied equally to people on leases but it was clarified that this was covered in the case being made to GoI. He said they had had a meeting with the RBI (PB missed this meeting but contact is ongoing), topics covered included the unreasonableness of not allowing people to repatriate any profits when they sold businesses or property after being resident for a number of years - the RBI position at the moment was that you can only re-patriate what you bring in**.
When the meeting was thrown open to the audience there were several impassioned speeches from people who felt that we are being harrassed and persecuted for no fault. A lady from the back of the room reported with obvious and understandable distress that the DofE had just served her with a notice saying her property would be confiscated and she would be fined; she asked if other people had received similar notices and what she should do. N & M from Aldona told their story of similar harrassment and cautioned that the DofE tried to trick people and put words in their mouths - in their case they were told they had bought agricultural land and built a farmhouse on it, where in fact they had built a bungalow on residential land. The BHCI asked the lady to talk to them after the meeting, when it is to be hoped she received more assistance and advice than could be given in public. I asked why the BHCI approach was still based on the assumption thet the Goa Govt. would behave reasonably if peoples purchases could be shown to have been made legally since I had won my case in open Court based on reasoned arguments but the Goa govt had just appealed to the High Court. Richard made the point that the Goan authorities (now backed by the Centre and the RBI) were behaving as if FEMA 1999 did not exist and were refusing to acknowledge that foreigners resident in India could buy property, and were even claiming retrospectively that visa type was relevant when FEMA does not mention visas at all. (** The same applies to repatriation of funds: under current "relaxed" RBI rules a resident can purchase and remit foreign currency up to US $ 1,000,000 per year for any purpose; but it seems they only want to apply this rule to resident citizens - a.f.d). Another lady stated that the BHCI owed us all a Duty of Care - which elicited a rather bemused response. The meeting continued with many in the audience making clear their distress and anger at the harrassment they receive.
Simon concluded by saying there would be a further meeting - he preferred March but some people suggested February.
AndyD 8-)#
P.S. when I have time toassemble my thoughts I will try to write a summary of the current state of play as I see it (dire!).
Dec 18th 2010 | 9:25 am
#23
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 843
Re: THE MEETING.
OK, Ok - to be honest the overall mood of the meeting was so depressing that I couldn't face writing about it, but several beers later here is what I remember:
The Meeting
Peter Beckingham the Deputy High Commissioner introduced the team with him and opened the meeting with some general remarks, he said that he thought some progress had been made, but warned everyone that they wouildn't be leaving the meeting feeling good. He pointed out that the BHCI had to represent a lot of brits all over India, including handling several cases where there had been injury and loss of life, and also large companies like Vodaphone who had problems that could end up costing them billions of pounds. Our issues are also on the radar of the FO in London who have set up a special unit to deal with property problems experienced by brits around the world (Simon is to attend a liaison meeting with this unit in February). The Mumbai page of the BHCI website has a list of "approved" lawyers including some in Goa (I checked this but didn't recognise any of the names - a.f.d).
He said he had had two meetings with the Chief Secretary of Goa (a senior central govt employee), and two with A Kishore - he had an appointment to meet the Chief Minister (Kamat) but he was 'unavailable' for the meeting !!
He handed over to Simon Ferrand who said that BHCI are working on our problems - the websites are followed almost daily (I think he also suggested that GoI may read them - can anyone remember?) On the registration issue they have consulted lawyers on the actual meaning of FEMA and Goa's interpretation of it and on the topic of Govt of Goa had made some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
Simon clarified (as far as I am concerned for the first time - a.f.d) that BHCI would remove names and identifying data from the pro-formas before passing them to Kishore and only pass on names &c. with the persons permission if Kishore indicated the case was OK. Simon urged everyone to complete the pro-formas - particularly people on B/E visas - as soon as possible as Kishore will be 'moving on' in about six months. He felt that they were making progress and after B/E visas would be pushing next for X visa cases and only then for T visas (I personally have some reservations in that BHCI seem to be tacitly accepting that Kishore has the authority to tell the Registrars whether or not to register deeds, which imho he does not).
On the visa front Simon was emphatic that they have made very strenuous representations to the Ministry of External Affairs that people with property or businesses in India are being forced to apply for Tourist visas - and sign a Declaration - when the GoI's own rules state that we are not eligble for T visas. A couple of members of the audience pointed out that this applied equally to people on leases but it was clarified that this was covered in the case being made to GoI. He said they had had a meeting with the RBI (PB missed this meeting but contact is ongoing), topics covered included the unreasonableness of not allowing people to repatriate any profits when they sold businesses or property after being resident for a number of years - the RBI position at the moment was that you can only re-patriate what you bring in**.
When the meeting was thrown open to the audience there were several impassioned speeches from people who felt that we are being harrassed and persecuted for no fault. A lady from the back of the room reported with obvious and understandable distress that the DofE had just served her with a notice saying her property would be confiscated and she would be fined; she asked if other people had received similar notices and what she should do. N & M from Aldona told their story of similar harrassment and cautioned that the DofE tried to trick people and put words in their mouths - in their case they were told they had bought agricultural land and built a farmhouse on it, where in fact they had built a bungalow on residential land. The BHCI asked the lady to talk to them after the meeting, when it is to be hoped she received more assistance and advice than could be given in public. I asked why the BHCI approach was still based on the assumption thet the Goa Govt. would behave reasonably if peoples purchases could be shown to have been made legally since I had won my case in open Court based on reasoned arguments but the Goa govt had just appealed to the High Court. Richard made the point that the Goan authorities (now backed by the Centre and the RBI) were behaving as if FEMA 1999 did not exist and were refusing to acknowledge that foreigners resident in India could buy property, and were even claiming retrospectively that visa type was relevant when FEMA does not mention visas at all. (** The same applies to repatriation of funds: under current "relaxed" RBI rules a resident can purchase and remit foreign currency up to US $ 1,000,000 per year for any purpose; but it seems they only want to apply this rule to resident citizens - a.f.d). Another lady stated that the BHCI owed us all a Duty of Care - which elicited a rather bemused response. The meeting continued with many in the audience making clear their distress and anger at the harrassment they receive.
Simon concluded by saying there would be a further meeting - he preferred March but some people suggested February.
AndyD 8-)#
P.S. when I have time toassemble my thoughts I will try to write a summary of the current state of play as I see it (dire!).
The Meeting
Peter Beckingham the Deputy High Commissioner introduced the team with him and opened the meeting with some general remarks, he said that he thought some progress had been made, but warned everyone that they wouildn't be leaving the meeting feeling good. He pointed out that the BHCI had to represent a lot of brits all over India, including handling several cases where there had been injury and loss of life, and also large companies like Vodaphone who had problems that could end up costing them billions of pounds. Our issues are also on the radar of the FO in London who have set up a special unit to deal with property problems experienced by brits around the world (Simon is to attend a liaison meeting with this unit in February). The Mumbai page of the BHCI website has a list of "approved" lawyers including some in Goa (I checked this but didn't recognise any of the names - a.f.d).
He said he had had two meetings with the Chief Secretary of Goa (a senior central govt employee), and two with A Kishore - he had an appointment to meet the Chief Minister (Kamat) but he was 'unavailable' for the meeting !!
He handed over to Simon Ferrand who said that BHCI are working on our problems - the websites are followed almost daily (I think he also suggested that GoI may read them - can anyone remember?) On the registration issue they have consulted lawyers on the actual meaning of FEMA and Goa's interpretation of it and on the topic of Govt of Goa had made some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
Simon clarified (as far as I am concerned for the first time - a.f.d) that BHCI would remove names and identifying data from the pro-formas before passing them to Kishore and only pass on names &c. with the persons permission if Kishore indicated the case was OK. Simon urged everyone to complete the pro-formas - particularly people on B/E visas - as soon as possible as Kishore will be 'moving on' in about six months. He felt that they were making progress and after B/E visas would be pushing next for X visa cases and only then for T visas (I personally have some reservations in that BHCI seem to be tacitly accepting that Kishore has the authority to tell the Registrars whether or not to register deeds, which imho he does not).
On the visa front Simon was emphatic that they have made very strenuous representations to the Ministry of External Affairs that people with property or businesses in India are being forced to apply for Tourist visas - and sign a Declaration - when the GoI's own rules state that we are not eligble for T visas. A couple of members of the audience pointed out that this applied equally to people on leases but it was clarified that this was covered in the case being made to GoI. He said they had had a meeting with the RBI (PB missed this meeting but contact is ongoing), topics covered included the unreasonableness of not allowing people to repatriate any profits when they sold businesses or property after being resident for a number of years - the RBI position at the moment was that you can only re-patriate what you bring in**.
When the meeting was thrown open to the audience there were several impassioned speeches from people who felt that we are being harrassed and persecuted for no fault. A lady from the back of the room reported with obvious and understandable distress that the DofE had just served her with a notice saying her property would be confiscated and she would be fined; she asked if other people had received similar notices and what she should do. N & M from Aldona told their story of similar harrassment and cautioned that the DofE tried to trick people and put words in their mouths - in their case they were told they had bought agricultural land and built a farmhouse on it, where in fact they had built a bungalow on residential land. The BHCI asked the lady to talk to them after the meeting, when it is to be hoped she received more assistance and advice than could be given in public. I asked why the BHCI approach was still based on the assumption thet the Goa Govt. would behave reasonably if peoples purchases could be shown to have been made legally since I had won my case in open Court based on reasoned arguments but the Goa govt had just appealed to the High Court. Richard made the point that the Goan authorities (now backed by the Centre and the RBI) were behaving as if FEMA 1999 did not exist and were refusing to acknowledge that foreigners resident in India could buy property, and were even claiming retrospectively that visa type was relevant when FEMA does not mention visas at all. (** The same applies to repatriation of funds: under current "relaxed" RBI rules a resident can purchase and remit foreign currency up to US $ 1,000,000 per year for any purpose; but it seems they only want to apply this rule to resident citizens - a.f.d). Another lady stated that the BHCI owed us all a Duty of Care - which elicited a rather bemused response. The meeting continued with many in the audience making clear their distress and anger at the harrassment they receive.
Simon concluded by saying there would be a further meeting - he preferred March but some people suggested February.
AndyD 8-)#
P.S. when I have time toassemble my thoughts I will try to write a summary of the current state of play as I see it (dire!).
Jan 6th 2011 | 4:21 am
#24
BE Forum Addict
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,941
Re: THE MEETING.
I recently said:
Has anyone actually heard of any FN's getting their deeds registered?
I've not heard a murmur, and someone 'in the know' tells me they are pretty certain that the North Goa Registrar hasn't registered any.
Anyone know different?
AndyD 8-)#
... some progress with the pro-formas that had been submitted to Kishore and in the case of those on Business or Emplyment visas 40% of the cases have now been registered (I think this means the Registrar has actually Registered the Deeds (rather than Kishore 'registering' that they were OK) but this wasn't clarified, also I think that 40% = 4 cases i.e. 10 B/E visa pro-formas submitted).
I've not heard a murmur, and someone 'in the know' tells me they are pretty certain that the North Goa Registrar hasn't registered any.
Anyone know different?
AndyD 8-)#
Jan 6th 2011 | 9:47 am
#25
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,685
Re: THE MEETING.
Hi All,
For what its worth here's my summary of the meeting from notes taken.
Meeting started at 1815 hrs with introductions.
In attendance approx 70 persons excluding British High Commission Staff.
What BHC has been doing over the past few months.
1. Peter has failed to meet the Goan Minister but on two occasions has met with the his senior official, Chief Secretary of Goa. Peter has raised expat problems with him on both occasions and the Chief Secretary is well aware of expat problems. Also Mr Kishore is expected to be leaving his post within the next 6 months.
2. The Ministry of Home Affairs has been informed by Latica about ongoing British Visa problems however Peter stated that the two month out rule affects the BHC staff as much as it does Expats and this is unlikely to change anytime soon.
3. Simon, Latica & Shilpa have also had meetings with Goan Lawyers regarding the current impass ref properties.
BHC Developments.
1. Ref dealings with Mr Kishore and pro-formas;
About 40% of cases have now had their properties registered. This being properties purchased on Business and Employment Visas and people are to continue using the pro-formas.
2. The ongoing problems have also been raised with the RBI and they too have promised to look again at the situation with a personal contact to RBI being announced shortly.
3. A new unit in the foreign office has been set up to look at British Property problems abroad although not just Goa but everywhere.
4. BHC are in other discussions with MHA regarding visas and are confident that progress is being made.
5. As yet Simon does not have an answer as to what visa expats should apply for giving the declaration attached with tourist visas and the fact that expat property owners should not be applying for a tourist visa. BHC Staff are in continued discussion with MEA regarding visas.
it was reiterated that properties bought on employment and business visas where having them registered straight away through the submitting of the pro-formas and expats are to be encouraged to fill these in.
-----------------------------------------
That was the jist of the actual meeting and then it was through open to the floor for questions.
Some harrowing stories then emerged regarding confiscation orders and big fines.
Also a lot of horror stories about expats being harassed, victimized and verbally abused and threatened.
One elderly gentleman commented that Goa was the most racist place he had ever lived in and he had been the victim of racism on every level imaginable.
A few expats stated that they just wanted to be allowed to sell and leave and that they never wanted to return again. (Having heard some of the details regarding racism and abuse that they have had to put up with, i don't blame them at all)
The atmosphere at the meeting became very heated during question time and and it was apparent that everyone was frustrated at the lack of 'real' progress.
-------------------------------------------------
Andy and Noni have covered and highlighted the meeting very well and the above is from my sketchy notes of the time.
Regards,
Remy
For what its worth here's my summary of the meeting from notes taken.
Meeting started at 1815 hrs with introductions.
In attendance approx 70 persons excluding British High Commission Staff.
What BHC has been doing over the past few months.
1. Peter has failed to meet the Goan Minister but on two occasions has met with the his senior official, Chief Secretary of Goa. Peter has raised expat problems with him on both occasions and the Chief Secretary is well aware of expat problems. Also Mr Kishore is expected to be leaving his post within the next 6 months.
2. The Ministry of Home Affairs has been informed by Latica about ongoing British Visa problems however Peter stated that the two month out rule affects the BHC staff as much as it does Expats and this is unlikely to change anytime soon.
3. Simon, Latica & Shilpa have also had meetings with Goan Lawyers regarding the current impass ref properties.
BHC Developments.
1. Ref dealings with Mr Kishore and pro-formas;
About 40% of cases have now had their properties registered. This being properties purchased on Business and Employment Visas and people are to continue using the pro-formas.
2. The ongoing problems have also been raised with the RBI and they too have promised to look again at the situation with a personal contact to RBI being announced shortly.
3. A new unit in the foreign office has been set up to look at British Property problems abroad although not just Goa but everywhere.
4. BHC are in other discussions with MHA regarding visas and are confident that progress is being made.
5. As yet Simon does not have an answer as to what visa expats should apply for giving the declaration attached with tourist visas and the fact that expat property owners should not be applying for a tourist visa. BHC Staff are in continued discussion with MEA regarding visas.
it was reiterated that properties bought on employment and business visas where having them registered straight away through the submitting of the pro-formas and expats are to be encouraged to fill these in.
-----------------------------------------
That was the jist of the actual meeting and then it was through open to the floor for questions.
Some harrowing stories then emerged regarding confiscation orders and big fines.
Also a lot of horror stories about expats being harassed, victimized and verbally abused and threatened.
One elderly gentleman commented that Goa was the most racist place he had ever lived in and he had been the victim of racism on every level imaginable.
A few expats stated that they just wanted to be allowed to sell and leave and that they never wanted to return again. (Having heard some of the details regarding racism and abuse that they have had to put up with, i don't blame them at all)
The atmosphere at the meeting became very heated during question time and and it was apparent that everyone was frustrated at the lack of 'real' progress.
-------------------------------------------------
Andy and Noni have covered and highlighted the meeting very well and the above is from my sketchy notes of the time.
Regards,
Remy
Last edited by Remy-Ireland; Jan 6th 2011 at 10:47 am.
Jan 10th 2011 | 7:39 am
#26
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 177
Re: THE MEETING.
This is a very accurate summary of the meeting and infuriating in that it demonstrated that no matter how hard the British Consulate Service are working on our behalf they are being given the run around by the Goan authorities.. A pity that the Queen cannot concentrate on this run around to being given to her her emissaries instead of the easy topic of sport.
