Maybe1day

The max state pension at the moment in Italy is a tad over 90,000 Euros pm, Yes NINETY THOUSAND Euros per month!

amideislas

I have a friend in Germany who has held very senior positions in major companies throughout his professional life. In that time (he claims) he has (compulsory) contributed over €1.5M to his pension, yet he is only eligible for something like €800 per month in pension from the state. So, over decades, he has invested less than €1m in a private annuity, from which he can draw about €2000 per month.

bigglesworth

At LAST somebody is growing a brain. Perhaps Obama has been sidelined - thank God

IMF stuns Europe with call for massive Greek debt relief - Telegraph

Red Eric

Well, well well....

Possibly not just the way they were saying it, then? - but the previous 2 Greek governments presumably didn't manage to find the right register in which to whisper their doubts, either, given their lack of success in getting a realistic review of the situation.

amideislas

Christine Lagarde has always been the only voice of reason within the troika. She has always warned of the political risks of too much austerity. And so far, she's been bang-on with every prediction.

What does this have to do with Obama (other than [rightfully] encouraging debt relief)?

Garbatellamike

I think that's some of the reason Eric and the rest is the appalling performance of Syriza has made the economic situation so much worse that the case for debt relief is massively strengthened.

bigglesworth

Sorry, complete mistyping/daughter/brain storm. I misspoke a lot there with just two or three words.
"Perhaps Obama has finally sidelined Lagarde is what I meant".

I completely disagree about Lagarde, Ami. I think she was naive and foolish to allow the IMF to remain in this. Of course that was an inheritance from that French poseur/self important pr*tt DSK. But you get the big bucks for taking the big decisions.

The IMF's currency is now completely devalued. By no means her fault, but she has been there long enough to have shown some back bone. It is a bit late now. The IMF should have disengageded years ago.

Clearly this was not HER decision, or she would not have been in the photo call today. I suspect this is the shareholders.

Perhaps ... a big perhaps... people with political/presidential ambitions should just be banned from these roles. Fat chance. It is a springboard.

amideislas

OK.. fair enough.

But the IMF is a key component to any kind of fiscal relief. It's their very purpose. Rather difficult to abstain isn't it?

Look, there's plenty of blame to go around. And aside from Tspiras' behaviour in all of this (and I have little sympathy for whinging, self-centered lefties), I agree with much of the rhetoric coming from both sides. There's no simple fix.

But at the end of the day, Greece will never be able to repay this debt. Ever. Locking them in chains makes that even less likely. And if the far left (voted in out of desperation) continues applying the same irresponsible spending habits, that makes it even less likely.

In the end, the pawns victims are the Greeks. There's plenty of blame to go around.

Moses2013

Yes, they'll never pay it back but they can at least make an effort.
Here Germanys Staatsschulden
Bundes Staatsschulden Uhr 2015 Aktueller Schuldenstand und Pro Kopf Staats Verschuldung Deutschland » Staatsschuldenuhr.de

amideislas

OK... I love these comparisons.

This is a bit like comparing a 100K debt held by a healthy gainfully-employed, 30-year old, to a disabled, unemployed 67 year old with 25 K debt.

The numbers are clear; the former has 4x the debt of the other.
But which one is more likely to be able to repay that debt?

Garbatellamike

Also worth noting that the IMF are all for the EZ taking a huge haircut and offering debt releif but are not prepared to do the same themselves.......

Tipsy gave a really good speech earlier acknowledging he had cocked up the negotiations and saying whilst he did not agree with the principles of the EZ offer it was the best deal that could be got as the banks were collapsing and something concrete had to be done and now. He also made the telling point that the other option he had was a return to the Drachma and that whilst it was difficult to live on a pension of €800 per month if that was converted to 800 Drachma it would probably last 3 days not a month.

Whilst the idealogue Varoufakeit was prepared to sacrifice the Greek people and the Greek economy to try and prove what he had forecast on his blog was right, Tipsy clearly has more heart, more responsibility and more brain - this is good thing imho as was the sacking of the imbecile responsible for making things much worse in only 5 months - Tsipras is growing in stature!

I still think the most pertinent comment on this thread was the one along these lines:

"pygmies, the whole damn lot of them"

Maybe1day

Italy stood at 2218.* billion as of the 31/5/2015. growing at 5 times the BDR,
ie 8774 Euros per second for May. so by the end of the year it will be around 2379 billion, an increase of 245 billion this year over 11% !!!!!!! Hopefully May was an exception.

amideislas

These are all very, very big numbers. What's troubling is that all that's needed is to lean a little too far out the [political] window, and ... Greece 2.0, 2.3, 3.0... but the aftershock measures 7.0 rather than 4.2 on the Richter scale.

Maybe1day

Italy was a much happier country 20 years ago with inflation running around 15% pa,
The Banks were charging 20% 0n a low risk mortgage, moaning and whingeing were normal but today the media is full of this stuff +the latest murders etc... ?
Now the Italian Banks get the dosh at 0.5% and grudgingly lend at apparently monstruos rates preferring to invest in Hi interest Asian Banks and bonds, obviously not Greek.....

bigglesworth

Ami I generally agree with just about everything you post - which may not be a comfort as I am sure some think I am barking mad . But no I do not think the IMF’s purpose was or is fiscal relief. Especially not as a junior partner. The original charter never envisaged anything like this – the monetary co-operation they keep citing was only by the provision for consultation. The IMF’s purpose is promotion of trade, growth and employment, and the temporary ironing out of fiscal imbalances.

I did not at the time and do not now think it appropriate to use such a large percentage of comparatively scarce resources to bail out part of the largest and richest currency union in the world. Were I Botswana or Ghana or anywhere else in the developing world I would be almighty p*ssed off.

I do not believe the IMF has ever been a subordinate partner in such an exercise before. It was probably illegal under the IMFs own rules and the size of the loan to a small economy is unprecedented. If I remember correctly loans previously were limited to a multiple of the country’s quota. Probably no more than a couple of billion in Greece’s case. This was all to do with DSKs political ambitions.

When Lagarde was appointed I really thought she might sort this mess out. That she has not, but has actually deepened IMF involvement, is scandalous. Very real damage has been done to the IMF's credibility and standing, damage that may not be repaired easily.

I suspect the leaks from the IMF are from staffers eager to ensure that Lagarde does not get re-elected next year. She may wish she had agreed to take the Presidency after all.

Chickens are coming home to roost all over Europe. I just keep coming back to the same thought. How COULD they all have been so stupid?