Road to a Grecian turn?
Jun 8th 2015, 8:40 am
#421
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
I do not share all your views but you have been right in many of the things you say. There are, of course, areas where we will differ but that is the nature of debate.
Last edited by Garbatellamike; Jun 8th 2015 at 8:45 am.
Jun 8th 2015, 11:30 am
#422
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Anyway back to topic:
The Italian PM (a socialist/neo-liberal btw) had this to say this morning:
I see Varoufakeit is off to Germany today, undoubtedly with the intent to add some more "destructive ambiguity" to the problem.
The Italian PM (a socialist/neo-liberal btw) had this to say this morning:
Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said it was “unthinkable” that Italians should help pay for a Greek pensions system more generous than their own.
“In other words, the Tsipras government also needs to pass the reforms: reform of the pension system, reforms to stop tax evasion, reform of the tax system,” Renzi told reporters at Schloss Elmau. “There is full agreement at the G-7 that everything must be done in order to avoid Greece exiting the euro, but also that Greek citizens, actually the Greek government, must be the first to send a signal.”
This encapsulates the problem with the current Syriza position methinks and the Slovenian FM was even more "direct" this morning along similar lines.“In other words, the Tsipras government also needs to pass the reforms: reform of the pension system, reforms to stop tax evasion, reform of the tax system,” Renzi told reporters at Schloss Elmau. “There is full agreement at the G-7 that everything must be done in order to avoid Greece exiting the euro, but also that Greek citizens, actually the Greek government, must be the first to send a signal.”
I see Varoufakeit is off to Germany today, undoubtedly with the intent to add some more "destructive ambiguity" to the problem.
Jun 8th 2015, 11:42 am
#423
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Jun 8th 2015, 11:46 am
#424
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Jun 8th 2015, 12:58 pm
#425
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
ekathimerini.com | What sort of man is Tsipras?
A balanced article here, which I think makes a lot of sense...
A balanced article here, which I think makes a lot of sense...
Jun 8th 2015, 1:03 pm
#426
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
When they struck the deal in February, Syriza agreed not to take any "unilateral actions" - any alteration to the tax system would presumably count as unilateral action.
Jun 8th 2015, 1:09 pm
#427
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nice one Eric
Jun 8th 2015, 1:09 pm
#428
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
I agree with you on this. So why are the Troika insisting on sweeping and drastic increases in VAT? It is they who keep on about "structural reform" and it appears that what they mean by that is simply tax increases and cuts in pay and pensions.
Jun 8th 2015, 1:16 pm
#429
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
If Syriza provide some detailed plans that have the same budgetary effect I am sure there will, rightly, be pressure on the Not-Troika to back off on VAT etc.
Jun 8th 2015, 2:01 pm
#430
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Berlin--Greece's finance minister said on Monday it was time the finger-pointing in debt talks with its EU-IMF creditors stopped and that both sides "come to an agreement".
After a weekend spat between Athens and the EU over planned reforms, Yanis Varoufakis told reporters on a visit to Berlin: "It is time to stop pointing fingers at one another and it is time that we do our job... to come to an agreement."
Wow Varoufakis says something that is not gratuitously offensive and/or totally ridiculous - is this the outbreak of sanity we have been looking for or just more game-playing and ambiguity???After a weekend spat between Athens and the EU over planned reforms, Yanis Varoufakis told reporters on a visit to Berlin: "It is time to stop pointing fingers at one another and it is time that we do our job... to come to an agreement."
I hope he is actually serious this time. I almost agree with him as it is well past time they do their job but better late than never eh?
Jun 8th 2015, 2:16 pm
#431
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
Oh ye of too much faith - it's just words.
Jun 8th 2015, 4:18 pm
#432
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
75 % of Greeks want to stay in the EU. 47% want a deal now.
Sunday times.
Does not look like the current government has overwhelming support for its stance.
Sunday times.
Does not look like the current government has overwhelming support for its stance.
Jun 9th 2015, 6:41 am
#433
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
They have suggested reforms of their own and they have committed to implementing reforms agreed but not implemented by their predecessors. Real reforms addressing the problems of tax evasion and corruption (which they are already active in cracking down on). They have agreed to privatisations. They have agreed to pension reforms to ensure the long-term sustainability of the social security system. They have agreed to changes to the VAT system. They have agreed to liberalisation of the markets for goods and services. They have agreed to maintain reasonable primary fiscal surpluses. And so on.
What they have not agreed to is more austerity and it appears the creditors are hell-bent on ramming more of it down their throats. Austerity, we're all agreed, is damaging. You don't get growth out of austerity, and when a country is in recession it's even more damaging. That is why the IMF 2010 forecast that Greece's economy would shrink by 2.6% before returning to growth turned out to be so drastically wrong. The IMF has admitted it made mistakes. It's time the Eurozone leaders did the same and came to an agreement about a constructive programme of reform, taking on board what has already been agreed between the two sides during the negotiations, rather than a damaging programme of more austerity which renders the protracted discussions since February a complete and deliberate waste of time.
Jun 9th 2015, 7:32 am
#434
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
I think it is structural reforms which are being demanded and I don't believe any of your examples fall into that category.
Austerity has never been the solution, it is a by-product of getting spending back under control - it exists only as long as it takes to achieve growth through sensible reforms.
This method worked for Ireland and appears to be working for Spain and Portugal. Perhaps because it was correctly implemented and the people did not keep trying to find a way around it?
Austerity has never been the solution, it is a by-product of getting spending back under control - it exists only as long as it takes to achieve growth through sensible reforms.
This method worked for Ireland and appears to be working for Spain and Portugal. Perhaps because it was correctly implemented and the people did not keep trying to find a way around it?
Jun 9th 2015, 8:17 am
#435
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Re: Road to a Grecian turn?
You have said on this thread on a number of occasions that Syriza want unconditional loans, that they don't agree to reform and that they want the debt wiped out so they can return to overspending. That is incorrect. We will have to diffe ron that as that is the only way their policies will work
They have suggested reforms of their own and they have committed to implementing reforms agreed but not implemented by their predecessors. Real reforms addressing the problems of tax evasion and corruption (which they are already active in cracking down on). They have agreed to privatisations. They have agreed to pension reforms to ensure the long-term sustainability of the social security system. They have agreed to changes to the VAT system. They have agreed to liberalisation of the markets for goods and services. They have agreed to maintain reasonable primary fiscal surpluses. And so on. They have talked about reform and not done anything
What they have not agreed to is more austerity and it appears the creditors are hell-bent on ramming more of it down their throats. Austerity, we're all agreed, is damaging. You don't get growth out of austerity, and when a country is in recession it's even more damaging. That is why the IMF 2010 forecast that Greece's economy would shrink by 2.6% before returning to growth turned out to be so drastically wrong. The IMF has admitted it made mistakes. It's time the Eurozone leaders did the same and came to an agreement about a constructive programme of reform, taking on board what has already been agreed between the two sides during the negotiations, rather than a damaging programme of more austerity which renders the protracted discussions since February a complete and deliberate waste of time. You don't get sustainable growth by borrowing money you can't pay back and massively increasing the size of an already bloated civil service but that's a Syriza policy - the IMF and EZ and ECB made loads of mistakes but that's no excuse to make matters worse.
They have suggested reforms of their own and they have committed to implementing reforms agreed but not implemented by their predecessors. Real reforms addressing the problems of tax evasion and corruption (which they are already active in cracking down on). They have agreed to privatisations. They have agreed to pension reforms to ensure the long-term sustainability of the social security system. They have agreed to changes to the VAT system. They have agreed to liberalisation of the markets for goods and services. They have agreed to maintain reasonable primary fiscal surpluses. And so on. They have talked about reform and not done anything
What they have not agreed to is more austerity and it appears the creditors are hell-bent on ramming more of it down their throats. Austerity, we're all agreed, is damaging. You don't get growth out of austerity, and when a country is in recession it's even more damaging. That is why the IMF 2010 forecast that Greece's economy would shrink by 2.6% before returning to growth turned out to be so drastically wrong. The IMF has admitted it made mistakes. It's time the Eurozone leaders did the same and came to an agreement about a constructive programme of reform, taking on board what has already been agreed between the two sides during the negotiations, rather than a damaging programme of more austerity which renders the protracted discussions since February a complete and deliberate waste of time. You don't get sustainable growth by borrowing money you can't pay back and massively increasing the size of an already bloated civil service but that's a Syriza policy - the IMF and EZ and ECB made loads of mistakes but that's no excuse to make matters worse.
The IMF were brought into the arrangement because the EZ Finance Ministers did not trust the Commission with their More Europe at any cost agenda to do the right thing. If the IMF weren't involved in the bail out Greece wuld have more chance of getting their free money imho.
Bottom line is they are still overspending massively and the only solution for that is to spend less. Don't forget the term primary surplus hides a significant overall defecit.
There is no realistic and lasting solution that does not require Greece to live within it's means, and the sooner the better. Constructive solutions for you seems to be the other countries subsidizing Greek overspending and unsurprisingly they are not prepared to do that.
I am beginning to sense a more mature approach to the negotiations from Syriza as they seem to have to come to the table to be reasonable at last.
You are right that the EZ have not covered themselves in glory over this whole debacle but giving into Syriza's insane demands would have huge knock on effects across Europe.
What we need is some honesty from Syriza and more of the mature approach, both of which have been sadly lacking to date. I am hopeful that is what we are starting to see now.
The main issue is how Tipsyrash sells the inevitable compromises he will have to make to the loonies in the "Left Platform" - good luck on that.