oceanMDX

On the contrary, you would do very well if you bought my 18-year old 1988 Toyota-4 Runner. I seldom used the block heater even at -43 C and the compression is excellent at 313,000 km. The rest of the truck is falling apart, but the engine feels as powerful as it did when new and is just as smooth. I used 5W-30 for the winters in Alberta (7 years), and 10W-30 the rest of the time.

You may think what you want, but I have read more than a little about this topic, and you have overstated the magnitude of the cold-weather startup problem with respect to engine wear and the benefit that an engine heater offers to reduce this. Keep in mind that a block heater uses a significant amount of electricity, so you ought not use it unless it is truly necessary. If you believe that the money spent on electricity is a good investment to prevent possible future costs as the consequence of cold starting, then you are making a big mistake! In addition, your claim that 5W-30 is too thick to lubricate a cold engine at anything below -12c is patently false! I expect better technical information from you iaink.

While it is true that most engine wear occurs during the first minute of startup - especially if the engine is very cold - it doesn't follow that you really need to plug the vehicle at any temperature below -12C.

The actual purpose of engine block heating is to make it easier to turn the engine over to get it started. Another benefit is that you will be able to warm up the cabin of the vehicle much sooner at low temperatures since the block heater directly warms the coolant that flows through the engine block. In other words, you truly only need to use an engine block heater if you might not be able to start the engine if you didn't warm the engine up first. Generally, gas engines in good condition (and with a good battery) should not have any trouble starting down to -20 C. At -30 C and below, the benefit of a block heater becomes very obvious.

MikeUK

err....

maybe the point that the use of a block heater helps with fuel economy...

that's why I use it in weather below 0 deg C !!


to quote the Canadian government: In temperatures below 0°C, block heaters can improve overall fuel economy by 10 % or more.

oceanMDX

Sorry, but so very untrue. Where do you guys get your facts?

Even 10W-30 is good down to -18 C according to Toyota (Honda says it's good down to -20C). Both Toyota and Honda (from my owner's manuals) say that 5W-30 is fine for any temperature below that. Nowhere in either of my manuals do Toyota or Honda suggest using anything less viscous than 5W-20.

iaink

Not going to argue the technical points of viscoelastic properties, wear rates and technical recomendations from the manufacturers, or synthetic vs regular oils, or the meaning of various SAE codes anymore. Take some motor oil, stick it in the freezer (or outside), observe the effect on viscosity and then decide if it looks up to the job

As the government recomends use below 0°C as a fuel saving measure, and the cost of the electricity at 400W for 2 hours a day is negligable (well, ~5c anyway, so its cost almost a buck so far this year ), I will not worry about the rest of the pseudoscience posted, and will leave it to the original poster to decide at what point they want to plug in.

Then there is the winter driving section at canadiandriver
http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/031105.htm
http://www.canadiandriver.com/winter/030312.htm
"Vehicles subjected to Canada's cold winter starts experience more engine wear in a couple years than a California vehicle may in a couple decades of starts."


or all of the links and testimonials here
http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/chalk...r_driving.html

oceanMDX

That is very much untrue iaink - shame on you!

This is also untrue. Even after sitting for months a film of oil remains on the engine parts, so there is some instant lubrication, but it's not ideal until the oil pressure has time to build up.



No, the crankshaft is not immersed in oil. At know time is the crankshaft immersed in oil. Where to you get this misinformation?

I once over filled my engine oil, and the master mechanic (service manager at a GM dealership) absolutely was adamant that the extra oil be removed, because if it wasn't the crankshaft could smash into the oil (in the oil pan) - and that this was not a good thing.

Agreed!

A fine point, but all the engine block heaters that I have ever seen heat the engine coolant - not the oil. The oil is warmed indirectly.

iaink

In what way??? See the canadian driver article linked above Which is scraped off and not replaced after the first revolution to some extent when cold I stand corrected, Im not a mechanical engineer, I'm a materials engineer, strangely, working in ceramics we are taught a bit about tribology, lubrication and wear, even if the crank isnt immersed, you still have to pump the thickened oil for it to do any good WHATEVER Some are, some arent, the in hose coolant heater types are actually not the only type, they are good, but are generally more expensive and take longer (= cost more) to install.

iaink

No one is talking about changing oil grades here, its a red herring after all in a few minutes the oil is up to temperature anyway, its just what happens in those first few seconds that is the concern.

Just curious at what temperature your Honda and Toyota techs recommend the use of a block heater?

dbd33

In Los Cabos or in Vancouver ?

oceanMDX

This would be correct if only the electricity to operate a block heater was free. They are nuts to suggest that using a block heater at -2C makes any economic sense. Understand that an engine block heater is on all the time once it is on - it has no thermostat.

MikeUK

which is why they say use a timer for two hours (which i do)

oceanMDX

Exactly, only my Toyota 4-Runner is 18 years old and the engine oil consumption has never changed. The engine is as smooth and as powerful as when it was new. I very seldom used the engine block heat, and I used it in central Alberta for 7 years.

iaink

Lets do the math shall we.

Timer from crappy tire. $15 so say $1.50 a year, unless you are dbbs neighbourhood)

On for 2h average, 400W heater, 0.8kwh a day at 7c per kwh

Say 2 months of cold weather (in Ontario) although about half that this year. Probably a bit more than that of you use zero as the threshold
100days? so 100x.8x7c = $5.60 a year, plus the cost of the timer makes $7.10 a year, or about 9 liters of gas.

I use about 120l of gas a month, so even if I saved only 2.5% fuel through using the block heater I would still come out ahead over a 3 month winter, but thats not why I use one anyway.

I have no idea what they mean by "save 10% fuel" though, is that overall?, or on instantaneous fuel needs on startup (more likely?) , so yes, its stupid, and I agree that 0°C is too warm to really need to plug the car in.

oceanMDX

You are free to have your own opinions, but not your own set of facts.

I suppose you think your friend knows more than the combined knowledge of all the tribologists at Toyota, GM and Honda. By the way, is he standing over your shoulder telling you what to write?

Thanks, but I'll go by what my vehicle owner's manuals have to say on this subject.

iaink

AAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggg ggggghhhhhhhhhhh

This has NOTHING to do with oil consumption. Hopefully its smoother and more powerfull than when new, now its run in, BUT one car is hardly statistically significant when it comes to failure mode analysis now is it!

oceanMDX

Any improvement in fuel economy due to the use of at block heater at say -2 C wouldn't even come close to the cost of electricity. Most cradle Canadians would smile at anyone using an engine block heater at -2 C. Also consider that any fuel economy advantage only lasts for the few seconds extra that it would have taken the vehicle to warm up had the block heat not been used. In other word, you may gain a 10 % fuel economy advantage for 30 seconds by using an hours worth of electricity. I would imagine that a block heater uses 750 - 1000 watts of power. This is not an insignificant amount of power. On balance (at -2C) you would be far better off financially not to have used the block heater. Now at -20 C and below, it's a different story.

The Government has to understand that electricity is not free.