When are doubts more than that?!
Oct 1st 2013, 8:03 am
#76
Muskoka, Ontario
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
My tuppence....
Part 1 - My very good friend here (see, I did make one
) is a UK trained GP. She has had to jump through a phenomenal amount of hoops in order to fully embrace her job. (You have to remember you are "foreign trained" and therefore the same as anyone coming in from any other country in the world - where, it must be said, standards vary hugely). She has moved through four different practices to find a good fit and finally, is very happy in her current post. There have been some insurmountable personality issues with lazy leadership, and money-grabbing-see-as-many-patients-as possible-while-offering-bugger-all-in-the-way of patient-care colleagues....
She works 3 and a half days a week, and earns a fortune. It took about 4 years to be fully "let loose". She bemoans some things, loves others, now teaches and trains the young 'uns coming out on practicums, and is authorized by the University of Calgary to lecture. She has been here 7 years and has a good life.
Work for yourself is likely to be a long drawn out and frustrating process.
Part 2 - my husband had grave reservations about coming here in the first place, and some years down the line admitted he wished he had said "no". We are lucky to have a very strong relationship, and somehow, 6 years later, we are still here, quite happy, and have a good life. We've had our moments though!
From the outline details, and reading between your lines, you need to have that one more "proper and honest" conversation with your husband. Spell out your reservations.
I think you will give it a leap of faith, and I suspect you will muddle by just fine. But if I was you, I think I'd stay put.
Glad to have been so much help. 
Part 1 - My very good friend here (see, I did make one
) is a UK trained GP. She has had to jump through a phenomenal amount of hoops in order to fully embrace her job. (You have to remember you are "foreign trained" and therefore the same as anyone coming in from any other country in the world - where, it must be said, standards vary hugely). She has moved through four different practices to find a good fit and finally, is very happy in her current post. There have been some insurmountable personality issues with lazy leadership, and money-grabbing-see-as-many-patients-as possible-while-offering-bugger-all-in-the-way of patient-care colleagues....She works 3 and a half days a week, and earns a fortune. It took about 4 years to be fully "let loose". She bemoans some things, loves others, now teaches and trains the young 'uns coming out on practicums, and is authorized by the University of Calgary to lecture. She has been here 7 years and has a good life.
Work for yourself is likely to be a long drawn out and frustrating process.
Part 2 - my husband had grave reservations about coming here in the first place, and some years down the line admitted he wished he had said "no". We are lucky to have a very strong relationship, and somehow, 6 years later, we are still here, quite happy, and have a good life. We've had our moments though!
From the outline details, and reading between your lines, you need to have that one more "proper and honest" conversation with your husband. Spell out your reservations.
I think you will give it a leap of faith, and I suspect you will muddle by just fine. But if I was you, I think I'd stay put.
Glad to have been so much help.
Thank you Ann for your tuppence 
Oct 1st 2013, 10:05 am
#77
Dichotomus tinker
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,678
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
My tuppence....
Part 1 - My very good friend here (see, I did make one ) is a UK trained GP. She has had to jump through a phenomenal amount of hoops in order to fully embrace her job. (You have to remember you are "foreign trained" and therefore the same as anyone coming in from any other country in the world - where, it must be said, standards vary hugely). She has moved through four different practices to find a good fit and finally, is very happy in her current post. There have been some insurmountable personality issues with lazy leadership, and money-grabbing-see-as-many-patients-as possible-while-offering-bugger-all-in-the-way of patient-care colleagues....
She works 3 and a half days a week, and earns a fortune. It took about 4 years to be fully "let loose". She bemoans some things, loves others, now teaches and trains the young 'uns coming out on practicums, and is authorized by the University of Calgary to lecture. She has been here 7 years and has a good life.
Work for yourself is likely to be a long drawn out and frustrating process.
Part 1 - My very good friend here (see, I did make one
) is a UK trained GP. She has had to jump through a phenomenal amount of hoops in order to fully embrace her job. (You have to remember you are "foreign trained" and therefore the same as anyone coming in from any other country in the world - where, it must be said, standards vary hugely). She has moved through four different practices to find a good fit and finally, is very happy in her current post. There have been some insurmountable personality issues with lazy leadership, and money-grabbing-see-as-many-patients-as possible-while-offering-bugger-all-in-the-way of patient-care colleagues....She works 3 and a half days a week, and earns a fortune. It took about 4 years to be fully "let loose". She bemoans some things, loves others, now teaches and trains the young 'uns coming out on practicums, and is authorized by the University of Calgary to lecture. She has been here 7 years and has a good life.
Work for yourself is likely to be a long drawn out and frustrating process.
Its quite the business he tells me, a facility that is open 7 days per week 7am - 8pm M-F with half days S-S. In its common shared services facility each GP has reception, records keeping & billing management. So you get the idea that three doctors have made millions you think from not just providing medical consultations, examinations to but also the add-on services - all at a cost to the tax paying pubic billed to OHIP.
Back to my buddy. This guy lives for the money, he knows he has the population, is never out of patients & even with a confirmed booked appointment there is generally a 30 minute wait. His typical day/week begins each day starting at around 5.45am he makes a visit to the local hospital not more than 5 minutes from his office to see any of his patients that have had surgery (although you'd think that would be under the care of the surgeon/specialist) which of course is billable. Then off to his daily routine he starts seeing patients by 7am each day. Monday his longest day is till 8pm with Fridays a half day. In between he breaks for one-hour lunch which he spends most of it calling patients, looking at lab reports or referred consultants specialists reports of his patients. He says he can see on average 500 patients a week and bills not less than $350k/year to OHIP with extra revenue from ancillary services, money from referrals, rent from the building, a percentage of the fees charged by other services in the building.
He is never away from his practice, taking only two one week holidays a year, a few one/two day conferences.
In the attached link from OHIP you get the general idea of what the medical profession in Ontario bill fee for services which I call 'billable hours' Its all about money & not about quality of service
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/...v/a_consul.pdf
Last edited by not2old; Oct 1st 2013 at 10:51 am. Reason: added further info
Oct 1st 2013, 2:47 pm
#78
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
My buddy the local GP in Toronto aged 62 has built up a a fast paced medical facility with his two partners since they were all licensed together in 1977. Its an all inclusive medical building with its one stop shop on-site pharmacy, diagnostics services,(X-Ray, blood lab, ECG, pulmonary testing , eye testing/opticians & dentists all in the same facility). Medical suits within the facility are rented on a daily basis to newer graduates that want to start a practice as well as long time pay as you go doctors, GP's, specialists.
Its quite the business he tells me, a facility that is open 7 days per week 7am - 8pm M-F with half days S-S. In its common shared services facility each GP has reception, records keeping & billing management. So you get the idea that three doctors have made millions you think from not just providing medical consultations, examinations to but also the add-on services - all at a cost to the tax paying pubic billed to OHIP.
Back to my buddy. This guy lives for the money, he knows he has the population, is never out of patients & even with a confirmed booked appointment there is generally a 30 minute wait. His typical day/week begins each day starting at around 5.45am he makes a visit to the local hospital not more than 5 minutes from his office to see any of his patients that have had surgery (although you'd think that would be under the care of the surgeon/specialist) which of course is billable. Then off to his daily routine he starts seeing patients by 7am each day. Monday his longest day is till 8pm with Fridays a half day. In between he breaks for one-hour lunch which he spends most of it calling patients, looking at lab reports or referred consultants specialists reports of his patients. He says he can see on average 500 patients a week and bills not less than $350k/year to OHIP with extra revenue from ancillary services, money from referrals, rent from the building, a percentage of the fees charged by other services in the building.
He is never away from his practice, taking only two one week holidays a year, a few one/two day conferences.
In the attached link from OHIP you get the general idea of what the medical profession in Ontario bill fee for services which I call 'billable hours' Its all about money & not about quality of service
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/...v/a_consul.pdf
Its quite the business he tells me, a facility that is open 7 days per week 7am - 8pm M-F with half days S-S. In its common shared services facility each GP has reception, records keeping & billing management. So you get the idea that three doctors have made millions you think from not just providing medical consultations, examinations to but also the add-on services - all at a cost to the tax paying pubic billed to OHIP.
Back to my buddy. This guy lives for the money, he knows he has the population, is never out of patients & even with a confirmed booked appointment there is generally a 30 minute wait. His typical day/week begins each day starting at around 5.45am he makes a visit to the local hospital not more than 5 minutes from his office to see any of his patients that have had surgery (although you'd think that would be under the care of the surgeon/specialist) which of course is billable. Then off to his daily routine he starts seeing patients by 7am each day. Monday his longest day is till 8pm with Fridays a half day. In between he breaks for one-hour lunch which he spends most of it calling patients, looking at lab reports or referred consultants specialists reports of his patients. He says he can see on average 500 patients a week and bills not less than $350k/year to OHIP with extra revenue from ancillary services, money from referrals, rent from the building, a percentage of the fees charged by other services in the building.
He is never away from his practice, taking only two one week holidays a year, a few one/two day conferences.
In the attached link from OHIP you get the general idea of what the medical profession in Ontario bill fee for services which I call 'billable hours' Its all about money & not about quality of service
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/...v/a_consul.pdf
Oct 1st 2013, 2:50 pm
#79
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
My doctor is the complete opposite of yours. She works Mon-Fri 8.30 to 4pm, closed for an hour at lunchtime and only does immigration medicals on a Friday afternoon, no other patients. She takes 2 weeks off at Christmas, a week at Easter and 2-3 weeks in the Summer. However, she spends as much time as necessary with each patient - there is never a feeling of being rushed - listening and taking the time to find out what is wrong and will send you for any tests that she thinks would help. She is genuinely interested and involved with her patients and you can tell from her attitude and empathetic personality that she is not just in it for the money.
Oct 1st 2013, 3:12 pm
#80
Muskoka, Ontario
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
My buddy the local GP in Toronto aged 62 has built up a a fast paced medical facility with his two partners since they were all licensed together in 1977. Its an all inclusive medical building with its one stop shop on-site pharmacy, diagnostics services,(X-Ray, blood lab, ECG, pulmonary testing , eye testing/opticians & dentists all in the same facility). Medical suits within the facility are rented on a daily basis to newer graduates that want to start a practice as well as long time pay as you go doctors, GP's, specialists.
Its quite the business he tells me, a facility that is open 7 days per week 7am - 8pm M-F with half days S-S. In its common shared services facility each GP has reception, records keeping & billing management. So you get the idea that three doctors have made millions you think from not just providing medical consultations, examinations to but also the add-on services - all at a cost to the tax paying pubic billed to OHIP.
Back to my buddy. This guy lives for the money, he knows he has the population, is never out of patients & even with a confirmed booked appointment there is generally a 30 minute wait. His typical day/week begins each day starting at around 5.45am he makes a visit to the local hospital not more than 5 minutes from his office to see any of his patients that have had surgery (although you'd think that would be under the care of the surgeon/specialist) which of course is billable. Then off to his daily routine he starts seeing patients by 7am each day. Monday his longest day is till 8pm with Fridays a half day. In between he breaks for one-hour lunch which he spends most of it calling patients, looking at lab reports or referred consultants specialists reports of his patients. He says he can see on average 500 patients a week and bills not less than $350k/year to OHIP with extra revenue from ancillary services, money from referrals, rent from the building, a percentage of the fees charged by other services in the building.
He is never away from his practice, taking only two one week holidays a year, a few one/two day conferences.
In the attached link from OHIP you get the general idea of what the medical profession in Ontario bill fee for services which I call 'billable hours' Its all about money & not about quality of service
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/...v/a_consul.pdf
Its quite the business he tells me, a facility that is open 7 days per week 7am - 8pm M-F with half days S-S. In its common shared services facility each GP has reception, records keeping & billing management. So you get the idea that three doctors have made millions you think from not just providing medical consultations, examinations to but also the add-on services - all at a cost to the tax paying pubic billed to OHIP.
Back to my buddy. This guy lives for the money, he knows he has the population, is never out of patients & even with a confirmed booked appointment there is generally a 30 minute wait. His typical day/week begins each day starting at around 5.45am he makes a visit to the local hospital not more than 5 minutes from his office to see any of his patients that have had surgery (although you'd think that would be under the care of the surgeon/specialist) which of course is billable. Then off to his daily routine he starts seeing patients by 7am each day. Monday his longest day is till 8pm with Fridays a half day. In between he breaks for one-hour lunch which he spends most of it calling patients, looking at lab reports or referred consultants specialists reports of his patients. He says he can see on average 500 patients a week and bills not less than $350k/year to OHIP with extra revenue from ancillary services, money from referrals, rent from the building, a percentage of the fees charged by other services in the building.
He is never away from his practice, taking only two one week holidays a year, a few one/two day conferences.
In the attached link from OHIP you get the general idea of what the medical profession in Ontario bill fee for services which I call 'billable hours' Its all about money & not about quality of service
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/...v/a_consul.pdf
It doesn't have to be like that though. My husband wants to spend more time with the children not less. The GP we went to see, was quite clear that he could work what he wants really, and income will be based on this. Money's great and all that, but I don't really like to keep company with people who think value is based on your wealth.
Oct 1st 2013, 3:14 pm
#81
Bon Vivant
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,956
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
My doctor is the complete opposite of yours. She works Mon-Fri 8.30 to 4pm, closed for an hour at lunchtime and only does immigration medicals on a Friday afternoon, no other patients. She takes 2 weeks off at Christmas, a week at Easter and 2-3 weeks in the Summer. However, she spends as much time as necessary with each patient - there is never a feeling of being rushed - listening and taking the time to find out what is wrong and will send you for any tests that she thinks would help. She is genuinely interested and involved with her patients and you can tell from her attitude and empathetic personality that she is not just in it for the money.
Oct 1st 2013, 3:24 pm
#82
Dichotomus tinker
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,678
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
It doesn't have to be like that though. My husband wants to spend more time with the children not less. The GP we went to see, was quite clear that he could work what he wants really, and income will be based on this.
Money's great and all that, but I don't really like to keep company with people who think value is based on your wealth
Money's great and all that, but I don't really like to keep company with people who think value is based on your wealth
In Canada you don't work, you don't get paid & remember the liability insurance - because folks over this part of the world will likely either sue you or discredit you the first chance they get.
So, I reckon the first year or two as an unlicensed supervised doctor he'll make $70K gross. After he gets his license & spends all kinds of money setting up the first year after that he'd be lucky to make $100k with luck $150K
After that by year 4/5 the pressure is on to get the $350k/yr minimum
Last edited by not2old; Oct 1st 2013 at 3:27 pm.
Oct 1st 2013, 3:31 pm
#83
Muskoka, Ontario
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
how many hours per week now on average is he working in practice?
In Canada you don't work, you don't get paid & remember the liability insurance - because folks over this part of the world will likely either sue you or discredit you the first chance they get.
So, I reckon the first year as an unlicensed supervised doctor he'll make $70K gross. After he gets his license & spends all kinds of money setting up the first year he'd be lucky to make $100k with luck $150K
After that by year 4/5 the pressure is on to get the $350k/yr minimum
In Canada you don't work, you don't get paid & remember the liability insurance - because folks over this part of the world will likely either sue you or discredit you the first chance they get.
So, I reckon the first year as an unlicensed supervised doctor he'll make $70K gross. After he gets his license & spends all kinds of money setting up the first year he'd be lucky to make $100k with luck $150K
After that by year 4/5 the pressure is on to get the $350k/yr minimum
Plus since we have been out there, seen the surgery- already set up, he will be working, not just the daft kind of hrs your "buddy" is working. Do you think he doesn't pay "liability insurance" in the uk? They sue here too you know.
Oct 1st 2013, 3:34 pm
#84
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
They are advertising locally for GP's - 40 hour week, $200,000 to $310,000 so I doubt very much if the OP's husband will be earning $70k.
Oct 1st 2013, 3:53 pm
#85
Dichotomus tinker
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 6,678
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
When he gets licensed and sees the dollar signs, who knows what will happen, maybe a move from Bracebridge to NWT, Toronto, Hamilton or somewhere in BC
Oct 1st 2013, 4:11 pm
#86
Muskoka, Ontario
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
as a supervised unlicensed Physician likely he will. As she said its not about the money its about spending more time as a family.
When he gets licensed and sees the dollar signs, who knows what will happen, maybe a move from Bracebridge to NWT, Toronto, Hamilton or somewhere in BC
When he gets licensed and sees the dollar signs, who knows what will happen, maybe a move from Bracebridge to NWT, Toronto, Hamilton or somewhere in BC
His earning potential won't be the same as the other doctors, because there will be a lot of on the job knowledge to be gained. Clearly we're already aware of this!
Oct 1st 2013, 4:25 pm
#87
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
That seems just like what would happen to someone who had the intention of working as a rural GP.
Oct 1st 2013, 4:30 pm
#88
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
Don't assume to know anything about us, you might mix with people who get caught up in that, you might be that way inclined yourself- who knows. If he wanted to earn more in the UK that's perfectly possible, he just doesn't want to and neither is he working without a license in Canada, the supervision refers to some reports once a week, or maybe a month that need to be filed with the CPSO. It is supervision in the loosest sense of the word. We have actually talked to other doctors in Ontario, done some research etc you know!
His earning potential won't be the same as the other doctors, because there will be a lot of on the job knowledge to be gained. Clearly we're already aware of this!
His earning potential won't be the same as the other doctors, because there will be a lot of on the job knowledge to be gained. Clearly we're already aware of this!
Oct 1st 2013, 5:05 pm
#89
Muskoka, Ontario
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,045
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
In some of the other posts, I've furthered explained that the government have made contractual changes that are drastically increasing his workload, so it's getting much worse, and he's having to work harder for a decreasing salary, that's without pension cuts etc. We fully appreciate that it might not be different, frying pan into the fire etc, but right now, he's done, disillusioned, sick of the government intervention in health care. This is quite without the announcement today that doctors surgeries should be open 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Four doctors in their practice- you do the maths. Think he'll be paid more- don't be daft. Slightly ranting! Sorry!
Penile implants, that's where the money is. He could set up one of them fly-in dong adjustment places by the airport. Maybe make it a 24 hour operation.
Good plan! It is the natural career progression!!
That seems just like what would happen to someone who had the intention of working as a rural GP.
Good plan! It is the natural career progression!!
That seems just like what would happen to someone who had the intention of working as a rural GP.
Last edited by Tirytory; Oct 1st 2013 at 5:08 pm.
Oct 1st 2013, 5:14 pm
#90
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: When are doubts more than that?!
I'm not completely sure what you're getting at, but I'll try and explain. We would probably like to earn an equivalent of his salary here without all the evening work in the week and weekends- although obviously there has to be some unsocial hours wherever you work. My son wants to know why his dad isn't around as much as some of the others. I don't think that really compares to Not2old GP mate.
In some of the other posts, I've furthered explained that the government have made contractual changes that are drastically increasing his workload, so it's getting much worse, and he's having to work harder for a decreasing salary that's without pension cuts etc. We fully appreciate that it might not be different, but right now, he's done, disillusioned, sick of the government intervention in health care. This is quite without the announcement today that doctors surgeries should be open 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Four doctors in his practice- you do the maths. Think he'll be paid more- don't be daft. Slightly ranting! Sorry!
In some of the other posts, I've furthered explained that the government have made contractual changes that are drastically increasing his workload, so it's getting much worse, and he's having to work harder for a decreasing salary that's without pension cuts etc. We fully appreciate that it might not be different, but right now, he's done, disillusioned, sick of the government intervention in health care. This is quite without the announcement today that doctors surgeries should be open 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Four doctors in his practice- you do the maths. Think he'll be paid more- don't be daft. Slightly ranting! Sorry!
I'm not trying to get at anything, just pointing out that you had referred to pay as being an issue. From what others have posted, it does seem that pay would be a plus point to moving.
I'm not even in Canada, but am drawn to posts where the person is conflicted because there can be significant issues with emigrating that tend to be glossed over in the excitement of anticipating a move, and part of me wants to advise caution even though, once you've got this far, you probably have to at least try it.
Despite the total disillusionment your husband is currently feeling, it would be sensible to leave the door open to a return if all is not as you expect.