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Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
It's entirely irrelevant, got to say you're showing a bit of a British mindset about the police. There is no obligation on you to call the police or get them involved in any way at all. The police generally tend to be spread more thinly in countries like the US than they are in the UK.
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
The police are trained civilians, generally speaking they have no more rights than anyone else although statute does for example allow them to arrest people under slightly different conditions usually or allow them to access certain information (but even then, that information is usually still accessible through public record laws). Citizen's arrests are generally legal too.
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
However as far as going up to someone and asking them what they're up to, I've done that and I'm sure most people have, nothing illegal about it, frankly most people wouldn't even have bothered to call 911 first.
And so... nothing illegal about that. Moreover he was licensed to carry the gun and carried it routinely, doesn't imply any sort of intent on his part.
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
Being stupid and being an idiot doesn't make you a criminal.
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
And in cases where you start a fight and the fight escalates and you then fear for your life, you can legitimately claim you acted in self-defence, in Florida at least. And many other jurisdictions.
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
This assumes he did actually start the fight, which he apparently denies.
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10795425)
Basically two idiots got into a fight based on their incorrect perception of the other person.
Happens all the time, the difference in this case was the media attention. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by MarylandNed
(Post 10796684)
I have no idea why he called the police because it appears that Martin was doing nothing that required a 911 call at all. He was walking back to his dad's place after buying skittles and a drink at a 7-11.
Yes, police are TRAINED to deal with these situations! Having called them, why did Zimmerman ignore the dispatcher's advice not to follow Martin? Yes, but Zimmerman had already profiled Martin and decided he was a criminal even though there was no indication that Martin was doing anything wrong. Would the confrontation have happened if Zimmerman had not been carrying a gun? And again, with the police on the way, he didn't need to confront Martin. Zimmerman was armed and he didn't know if Martin was (he wasn't). The best course of action would have been to let the police arrive and deal with it. His profiling of Martin and subsequent actions created a situation that simply did not need to be created. We don't know that Zimmerman simply went up to Martin and asked him what he was up to. We'll probably never know. Well, he hardly stood his ground did he? If he had stood his ground, he'd have stayed in his car and Martin would still be alive. Of course he denies it. Unfortunately Martin can't give his side of the story because he's dead. How do you know that? How do you know that Martin was an idiot? For all you know Martin was attacked by Zimmerman and Martin was defending himself. Seems to me that Martin was simply walking back to his dad's place and had the misfortune to encounter a wannebe cop who turned out to be a bumbling vigilante (as dbd put it). They were both idiots who made rash assumptions, ended up in a pointless fight and that got Martin killed, that much is fact. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10796846)
Doesn't mean you can't ask the guy what he's doing. Nothing illegal or unusual about that.
Because he's under no legal obligation, like I said, bit of a British mindset there, the UK being more densely populated and the number of police per capita generally being higher I think people are a bit more compliant/reliant on the police. The police aren't viewed the same way in the US. Perhaps it was a stupid thing to do but it wasn't illegal for him to do it. Anyway at the trial it came out that he had actually had quite a lot of training. Certainly enough for him to be confident in asking someone what they're up to. But were the police on the way. I've been in exactly the same situation, someone acting suspiciously, I called 911, by the time the police got there, the guy was gone. That's only one aspect of the law and not entirely relevant. Well it's clear he had the upper hand in the fight, which does lend support to it, because there's a witness who said Martin was on top of him and he had injuries to the back of his head. I know he was an idiot because he got into a fight with someone, you don't have to get into a fight with someone even if you're provoked and he clearly had the upper hand in the fight at some point but he didn't stop fighting. Moreover he was on the phone to a friend and described Zimmermann as an "ass****er". They were both idiots who made rash assumptions, ended up in a pointless fight and that got Martin killed, that much is fact. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 10796872)
Martin was only "acting suspiciously" by walking while black. One hopes that wouldn't make this an urgent police matter. My guess is that Zimmerman assumed the police wouldn't rush and so decided to pursue the matter himself. It seems reasonable to me that Martin would think a man following him with a gun to be worthy of insult. "Cracker" turned out to be wrong. "Crazy" didn't. I'm not sure what your asterisks conceal but I don't think he made any comment on Zimmerman's sexual proclivities.
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Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 10796977)
Wasn't Martin wearing a hoodie and wasn't it dark, if so, how did Zimmerman profile him based upon colour?
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Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 10796977)
Wasn't Martin wearing a hoodie and wasn't it dark, if so, how did Zimmerman profile him based upon colour?
http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by MarylandNed
(Post 10796996)
Maybe you should read the transcript of the 911 call.
http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...zimmerman.html |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
I think it's an important point for Zimmerman's side that he thought Martin to be black. If his case is that every time he sees someone walking in the complex he calls the cops and then, taking up his gun, follows them, he's plainly bonkers. In order to be at all credible he has to be able to convey that he had reason to be suspicious, racism gives him that reason.
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Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by dbd33
(Post 10797146)
I think it's an important point for Zimmerman's side that he thought Martin to be black. If his case is that every time he sees someone walking in the complex he calls the cops and then, taking up his gun, follows them, he's plainly bonkers. In order to be at all credible he has to be able to convey that he had reason to be suspicious, racism gives him that reason.
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Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 10797174)
Unfortunately, it matters not a jot why he followed Martin or why he called the cops. The question is: was he entitled to shoot Martin? If the answer to that is Yes, he must be acquitted; if the answer is No, he will be convicted of murder or manslaughter. The rest is simply fluff.
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Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
(Post 10797180)
True but to some its entertaining TV and CNN (Im not watching it BTW) get to bring in experts on the subject.
All the while, thousands are slaughtered in Syria. One wonders what the next media frenzy will be over. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
(Post 10797174)
Unfortunately, it matters not a jot why he followed Martin or why he called the cops. The question is: was he entitled to shoot Martin? If the answer to that is Yes, he must be acquitted; if the answer is No, he will be convicted of murder or manslaughter. The rest is simply fluff.
(a) confronting an unarmed minor who is going about his business without any sign of criminal activity (b) creating an altercation that could have been avoided (he had already called the police and had the 911 dispatcher tell him not to pursue Martin - as instruction he chose to ignore) (c) shooting the unarmed minor dead while claiming self defense. There's just something not right about that scenario regardless of what the law says. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by mrthoth
(Post 10786871)
For Canada (as a normal educated guy) you'll need to seriously lower your expectations, where you thought of technology projects as 10's of millions, your now looking at 3/4/500,000. People tend to just recreate mini ghettos of "Cultural diversion"
Just my opinion but Canada will destroy your career, so unless you want to die there, pick somewhere else. The whole place is mediocre at best and has been spoiled by the pacifist approach to immigration. As someone who claims to be educated, you sure don't seem to be terribly educated about Canada. I'd go for the US at least they consider themselves American, every Canadian I speak to talk about their mum/dad/granddad, "home", almost like they're ashamed to be there. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by MarylandNed
(Post 10797258)
Well, I don't know about you but I have a problem with an armed man:
(a) confronting an unarmed minor who is going about his business without any sign of criminal activity (b) creating an altercation that could have been avoided (he had already called the police and had the 911 dispatcher tell him not to pursue Martin - as instruction he chose to ignore) (c) shooting the unarmed minor dead while claiming self defense. There's just something not right about that scenario regardless of what the law says. |
Re: UK vs Canada vs US
Originally Posted by Steve_
(Post 10788969)
Which you can't do if the employer declines to give you a permanent job offer. What I meant was sponsorship.
I wouldn't buy what he is selling. |
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