Pine Cone

No, not for long periods, only shorter stints for work and study/research.

Moving around isn't really difficult once you get the practicalities out of the way and figure out how it all 'works' in your new location. Plus there is alway an expat community for support while slowly building a network with the locals. However, I think it is quite a different prospect taking advantage of work opportunities when you are young and looking for adventure and experiences for a few months or a few years, as opposed to looking at a potental move with more permanence in mind. We don't want to be grey nomads afterall. I guess there is always a fear of getting it 'wrong', although perhaps that isn't quite the right word to use, since any international move is always going to be full of new exciting experiences, regardless of how long you stay.

Pine Cone

I'm certainly not 'bagging' countries I've left behind. I actually love an awful lot about NZ in particular and perhaps if we'd not been uprooted from Christchurch due to the earthquakes and the fact that the economy there is small and rather isolated, we might have decided to stay put and build a life long term. I'm simply stating (and qualifying with illustrative facts) that there are some specific aspects of life there that are a good 30+ years behind best practice in other westernised countries, and those things affected my comparative standard of living and quality of life enough that I'm prepared to spend the time and effort required to discuss them. In the same way my Swedish and Finnish friends frequently mention how lacking British houses are, and not so energy efficient, by comparison to modern Scandinavian ones, I am doing what many many expats from Europe and North America do, when looking at the build quality of Aussie and Kiwi houses. Acknowledging areas of life, health, industry or whatever, where things could be better, is what ultimately drives change, improvement and innovation. Some places embrace this more readily that others.

Also a quick look at the building regs for NSW compared to all the NZ zones shows me that the standards are not the same. Aussie has requirements to keep the roof tethered to th property in cyclones, which do not apply in NZ. Whereas NZ of course has seismic requirements, so the roofs are supported differently and the clading/bricks are tied/thethered. I've worked in the civil engineering industry and have particular experitise in the meteorological and geological side of things, so I do most definitely understand those differences. Then of course you can compare the insulation r-value requirements for the walls, slabs, ceiling and windows, which are not the same. Current house (less than 12 months old) has r1.7 in the walls and single glazed windows which are not sealed units and leak in heavy rain. The slab underneath the house is not insulated around the edges. A new build in NZ has about r2.8 in the walls and the slab is marginally better insulated, assuming the insulation is laid properly. And double glazing is required now, but thermally conductive material is still allowed for some bizarre reason, which almost defeats the purpose. Both countries allow certain configurations of plumbing that have not been allowed in new builds in Europe/UK since the 1980's due to upflowing due to back-pressure, contamination of waste back up the pipes and legionaire's risks etc etc. A conversion personally undertaken in a UK house 15 years ago, on a house that didn't have modern cavity walls still had bog standard r7 insulation in the walls. It is the same thickness as pink batts so could easily be used without changing the stud sizes, but not available on the market in NZ. Not to mention the use of joinery that does not have thermal bridging issues. And the funniest one - our current house (less than 12 months old) has an unflued gas point in the lounge with a label on it advising me to open a window if using a gas heater to avoid condensation and carbon monoxide poisoning. Heat the house and then open the window to let the heat out. Seriously??? We also had an unflued gas point in our new build in NZ, which is something I regrettably overlooked when going over the plans. It seems incredulous to me that this would even be legal! Differences in framing construction (leaky buildings aside) might be different, but that really bears no bearing on the overall build quality. Therefore I conclude that modern UK houses are most definitely better build, with a much lower diurnal temperature variation if left unheated, given the climate is not dissimilar to that in parts of NZ and gets just as cold in winter. Afterall a house in only as good and as energy efficient as it performs on a cold overcast day, with no additional heating or solar gain.

Now does anyone with any expertise in the Canadian house building industry want to tell me about the pitfalls and plus points of Canadian houses? So far, the only discussion I've had with anyone is a friend who is very enthusiastic (apart from the premium attached) about R-2000 homes, the r28 wall insulation and the indoor air qualty. That doesn't also tell me about issues with renovation and 15-30 year old homes.

Shard

How old are you? You seem to keep talking about "settling down" as its a requirement, but it's not actually. If you have the means to go elsewhere, and want to, do so.

From what you have said and where you have been I'm surprised you're not considering Vancouver over Toronto.

As to your worries about the UK, totally overblown as CO pointed out. If you did want to come back, plenty of other locations besides near London - especially if you are not so enamoured with it.

Pine Cone

We need to settle down for our kids more than anything else. They're not at the exam years of education, but we're not that far off. I've seen too many disaster stories where people have tried to move with older kids, going from one education system to another.
We also can't afford to send my kids in private schools. When we move next time, that'll be it until they've finished school.

Vancouver! Oh yes, I LOVE vancouver for so many reasons, even though it's as expensive as Sydney. I also love Victoria for that matter. But there is this Cascadia subduction zone, and I've been in one city levelled by a large earthquake. It didn't play out well. I'm not about to financially invest in another high risk area and neither is the actual experience something I'm keen to repeat. The St. Lawrence river valley seismic risk to Quebec and Ottawa exists of course, but the lengh of the faultlines means that the potential quake magnitudes are considerably lower and Toronto is relatively safe by global standards.

We could go back to the UK of course. It's another option we're considering. We would almost certainly be tied to London for work. There is just no way around that one. We could live outside the city in a village or small town of course, instead of a dreary outer London suburb. Actually, that is definitely the option we'd choose. But then at least one of us would have to contend with the daily commute for years, and the only place that comes close to walking down Oxford Street etc over the lunch hour is Tokyo. It's nuts! Unless Toronto has significantly worsened since I was last there, it just doesn't compare. I'm still trying to assess whether there is some big red flag, something I've not considered, that might confirm Toronto isn't the right option for us.

Shard

If the kids are 'not far off' from the exam years of education, and that's your primary concern, then its surprising that you are considering a move at all. On that point, Canadian education is not as exam driven, relying on completion of high school (with good marks) to get into universities rather than A levels. It might be 'disastrous' returning the the UK with teenage kids, but probably less of an issue with Canada.

Pine Cone

Australia was never a permanent move for us. We are here for a work contract. Therefore we'd be moving when that reaches it's conclusion anyway. Education is another consideration of course. Canadian high school education seems pretty similar to that in Aussie and NZ, but my kids are academic and have a pretty good work ethic so I'm not worried about putting them back into the UK education system either, athough I'll admit I'm happy they've not been subjected to the constant testing that seems to be the 'in' thing at the moment.

not2old

From our experience it doesn't happen, nor can you ever get it wrong - thats us

I gather from reading your older posts that you left the UK for NZ back in 2007, that you have been in OZ since 2014 on a work visa of some sort?

Old [as in grey] is only a number IMO, together with the fact that many first time immigrants to Canada are in their 40's, plus the fact that one can be nomads till the sun goes down for the last time.

You've mentioned in some of your posts 'ping pongers' - do you consider yourself ones, or is it that the opportunities that you have allow you to live & work in a country for a few years on a visa then move again without having PR, or do you ever want to have a home base & citizenship of another country - a place that would be your permanent home other than from where you were born & lived till you left the first time?

Are children the main factor for you to try to find a permanent base, if so, why not the UK, then use that to keep on travelling as a balance between work & the childrens break in their school holidays?

Of course as I have mentioned up thread, if OZ is too hot or for any of the other reasons for you to move, with Canada being the next hop on the places to live [and you are bent & determined on it being so] - then make the visa application, after all, the worse that can happen is you get refused.

Or is it that you want the current visa in OZ to run its course to within 6 months before the [in the planning stage] springboard to someplace else?

Can you or would you consider staying in OZ beyond the the visa period - if so, what about another state, is that doable for you, or is OZ somewhere that you do not want to settle down?

.

not2old

Seems like the UK would be your prefered choice?

Being one of BE members long time residents in the GTA, from where I sit in my armchair, I can say 'no red flags' & what do you mean by 'worsened' - was it that bad an experience the last time you were here, if so, what did you not like about the GTA back then?

I would suggest that if you have not been here in the past 10 years that you consider a recce before you make the visa application, you just never know, it may be a worsened place no different than when one goes back to the UK after being away for several years, its just different

not2old

Maybe I'm getting the wrong sense here, but you do seem to go on a bit about housing construction & the materials used in them as though this is one of your top priorities of you moving to live in another place?

Are you an environmentalist, architect or civil engineer - what is it that gets you so wound up about housing materials, construction or building regulations?

Outside of the title of this thread, may I suggest to you that you start a seperate thread on Canadian housing with respect to any detailed questions that you might have, some folks will likely be at the ready with their relevent expertise will come along with the answer to any of your questions.

not2old

Along with the potential move to the GTA, I'm sure that you have considered the schooling for your children?

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canad...ooling-861123/

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canad...oronto-859667/

Pine Cone

I'm actually none of the above, athough I have another area of expertise/education that has allowed me to work in both a civil engineering environment as well as in industrial/commercial procurement and manufacturing. I'm currently having a child-related career break which probably gives me more time to engage with people on social media and ask questions about the nitty gritty.

Yes, perhaps I have a bee in my bonnet more than other might because we've worked so damn hard for our money and to build assets in order to set ourselves up with some degree of security that we didn't have growing up. We don't come from priviledged background. In fact not even close and we'll never inherit anything. We've made some serious lifestyle sacrifices early in our adult lives as well as sensible financial decisions, wise carefully considered investments and we live a reasonably frugal, environmentally concious (as far as is affordable) lives because we don't want to buy into mindless consumerism and the 'bigger is better' mentality that is creeping into western culture.

With all of the above in mind, there is also the fact that climatically appropriate shelter, is a basic need that sits right up there along with nourishing food and access to medical care. Being comfortably warm and dry has a major impact on my overall wellbeing, my health and enjoyment of life. I want to live somewhere that I can afford to heat my whole house efficiently to an indoor temperature that reaches WHO guidelines, not just some of the rooms. I don't ever again want to eperience buying a brand new house that meets all the new building codes, and then up-specked some as far as we could afford, and still find half the house uncomfortably cold to live in, for reasons previously mentioned.

Housing is the biggest single investment and largest debt most people will take on in their lives and we don't want to be paying overinflated prices for comparatively shoddy houses that will require remedial work and maintenance beyond what would reasonably be expected for normal wear and tear. We don't want to purchase an overpriced depreciating asset anymore than I want to waste money on a flash car, when what I actually need to something reliable, efficient and comfortable. I'm quite prepared to buy an older house and then renovate it appropriately for the climate, if I'm otherwise happy with the other important aspects of my chosen location.

Shard

It's just housing. You seem overly obsessed with it.

Pine Cone

Poor choice of wording on my part. Toronto was busy downtown, but not even in the same ball-park when compared to central London. Assuming it hasn't become significantly busier in recent years. So no, when I was there last time, it was not a bad experience at all. It's all relative.

el_richo

And you want to move to Toronto?

Pine Cone

That is more or less correct. We're NZ citizens so we can stay here indefinitely, but there are obviously disadvantages of not acquring Aussie citizenship, for example the lack of access to any social safety net. We also can't access funds that cover you if there is a natural disaster even though we are not exempt from the compulsory insurance premium levy that covers this fund.


Do you ever feel that there are two sides to you, which need very different and opposing things? On the one hand, I have a burning desire to see more of this planet, to experience new things and visit new places that other people only look at whistfully in holiday brochures. To try out different lifestyles for a while. We've done rather well with this I think. At least as well as we could have with a family in tow and our children have benefitted enormously for the experiences they've had. But on the other hand I, or we really, need to have a 'nest' again. Our own place and space to do with is as we will. To put down roots and to really become part of a community again. It takes a great deal of emotional effort, time and patience to do so, and it's hard to find the motivation with a lifestyle that involves frequent moving about.


Yes, we want a home base and some long term stability. We've ping ponged around a bit. It'll soon be time to stop for a while. But when we stop, it needs to be somewhere that we'll be happy with and well informed of the various trade-offs we'll be making.



I never did mention how many children we have. We have a larger than average family and it's too prohibitively expensive for exciting holiday destinations, not to mention the logistical challenges. Believe it or not, it's actually cheaper for us to move country than it would be to take the family for a reccy visit elsewhere. As I've said, the UK is an option. But it doesn't hold the 'back home' appeal that is still has for many British expats, so our decision making process is based on rational weighing up of pros and cons rather than heartstings. Our kids don't identify with the culture there as they left when they were young, have never been back to visit, so it's be as new to them in the same as any other English-speaking country would. Canada potentially offers us something different, but we're trying to weigh up whether this would be better for us or not, rather than wearing those rose tinted specs and imagining big houses and building snowmen every winter. I know that sounds vague. Perhaps I should be asking what all the bad things about the GTA are and deciding whether we could still see ourselves living there?


We're thought about it. The only other work option would be Melbourne. It would certainly be doable, but we just don't feel inclined to stay here. There is nothing really 'wrong' with Australia. It just really isn't the right place for us and it is not somewhere I would want to grow old. We're enjoying Australia for what it is and for as long as we remain here, and we'll leave with some fond memories. In the same way, we really do love an awful lot about the lifestyle in NZ, and it was an awesome place to raise tiny tots. But we found the isolation and lack of opportunties became an issue after a few years. I can't emphasise enough how much we loved life in Christchurch before the quakes, but that lifestyle is over and done with now.