Pine Cone

I wrote this post a couple of years ago:

http://britishexpats.com/forum/canad...canada-753793/

Didn't really get much of a reponse, but thats kids of understandable when it's hard to put feelings into words without writing an essay.

Anyway, as planned we've left NZ and are now spending a couple of years exploring Australia. We're having fun exporing this country, but our feelings haven't changed in that this isn't the right place for us to settle long term. We're not searching for something we don't have and we're not unhappy. It's more that we're trying to make a rational decision about where and when to put down some roots, before the kids get too old and we're forced to make a decision without some serious consideration.

We've been out of the UK for almost a decade now and no longer compare prices in the way a new expat might, although I'll admit we do occasionally spend some time looking at UK houses on the Rightmove website. You know - just out of morbid curiosity.

What I'm really hoping, is that there might be other Brits out there who have lived in Australia or NZ and finally settled in Canada rather than returning to the UK. I'd really like to know how things compare, from the perspective of life in other 'new world' countries rather than as a comparison to the UK. I don't need to be told that shopping is cheaper at Tesco or Aldi, as I can do a mock online shop and see that for myself.

I look at the UK and see some lovely houses in chocolate box villages than we could just about buy as a fixer-upper should we decide to return eventually. But I also have this concern about the increase in anti-social behaviour, grafitti and public drunkeness, not to mention terrorism threats, horrendous commutes, crowds that make you feel like you are swimming in treacle and an NHS that looks like it is falling apart at the seams. Perhaps not an issue for people who can pick and choose where in the country they live, but we'll always need to live on the periphery of a large city for work reasons and London seems dreary compared to other large cities around the world. Maybe I'm worrying about nothing?

We've been considering the GTA, tentatively more than anything else. We are still just young enough to get enough points for PR with 12 months work experience, and it would not be too difficult to get a work transfer there. Housing stock appears to be a bit cheaper than Sydney, and the health service appears to be marginally better in that it is slightly more comprehensive than Aussie. We're aware that it's a frozen wasteland half of the year and that isn't a worry.

But what are the negatives?

Oink

I'd of thought your decision would be predicated on what is best for your children.

Shirtback

What attracts (I.e. "pulls") you towards Canada? For starters .

I've ping-ponged around a bit, albeit over a lot longer time period than you.

At the risk of sounding trite, *nowhere* is going to be perfect. But moving/staying anywhere seems to work out better if there's a pull factor to the new place rather than a push from the old ...

el_richo

You've already mentioned them

Simon Legree

Oh dear Oink ! I fort you wuz one of them blokes wat rote proper inglish

christmasoompa

If you're going to be living in a 'chocolate box village' within a commute of central London, then yes, I'd say you're worrying about nothing. I also live in a village within commuting distance of London (husband commutes there every day) and see no anti-social behaviour, graffiti, public drunkenness or 'crowds that make you feel like you are swimming in treacle'. On the contrary, the teenagers here are polite and pleasant, there's a real sense of community spirit, and it's certainly not crowded here. I can't see another living soul from my house unless you count the deer in the fields or the guinea fowl wandering across the garden!

You might think London is dreary compared to other cities, personally (and I'm not a city person), I love it. That's just a matter of taste, but I don't think if you choose to live in a village you'll encounter the crowds and yobs you seem to be worried about.

Just checking, but I assume you definitely are able to move to Canada i.e. you score enough on the CRS to be selected to apply for PR? Because if you don't score above the approx 450 or so points required, then that might just make the decision for you.....!

not2old

on the basis that you qualify to get a visa to move here...

Do tell us your budget for housing as well as the distance/commute you are prepared to travel to work since living in the GTA a one-hour commute (home to the workplace) is about the norm

The negatives

- The weather, it can get down to -30C in the winter & + 30'c (+40'c heat index/humidty temperature) in the summer. Basically, all hell can freeze over from January till end March, with December can average 0'c

- The cost of healthcare (outside of basic free doctors visits), dental & prescriptions you need to pay for unless you have private medical insurance or through work.

- We drive on the wrong side

- Housing is probably as expensive [dollar for dollar] as Sydney

Real Estate Listings in Canada: houses, condos, land, property | REALTOR.ca

- Property taxes are [likely] higher here than Sydney, as is cable TV, internet, mobile phone packages

- The GTA is as multicultural as any place, its not all lilly white & not everyone speaks English - if that bothers you?

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/co...0071d60f89RCRD

- Cost of living comparison

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...o&city2=Sydney

- From the numbeo website comparison...

"You would need around 6,978.20A$ (6,467.64C$) in Sydney to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 5,100.00C$ in Toronto (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index. This comparison assumes net earnings (after income tax)."

- Groceries - all kinds like you'll find in OZ & overall grocery basket cheaper here

- Petrol/gasoline: currently $1 per itre

- The average GTA resident has 'attitude' & little 'sense of humour', tend not to be not be as outgoing as Australians, probably some of the reasons being, work, the climate, spending too much time indoors

.

MikeUK

Or another way.. the GTA is a poor copy of a major western city... but with much worse weather

Oink

On the internet? Why on earth would anyone bother. Plus, I pretty rubbish at grammar in real life, that's why they invented proof readers and editors.

Pine Cone

I don't believe in moving 'to give kids a better life' as there are always going to be trade-offs from one location compared to another, and kids are adaptable to different lifestyles and circumstances. Mine are very adapatable having lived in several countries and are very much third culture kids, in that they don't readily identify with their country of birth (which isn't the same for all of them anyway). I think what is more important is long-term security in terms of community, healthcare, educational opportunities etc. It goes without saying that wherever we put down roots, we'd try and provide our kids with as many opportunities and experiences as we can realistically afford to do so.

Pine Cone

The thing is, we've been there and done that before. OK it was a small pleasant market town rather than rural village, but same difference with regards to commute etc. What worries me is that whilst we might love where were come home to at the end of the day, does that offset dealing with all the other c**p that we'd inevitable encounter during the working day or anytime we decided to leave our cosy nest. There is noticeably less of the negatives in Sydney, but the climate here is too hot for us long term.

Stinkypup

So, out of the frying pan and into the freezer then....

Pine Cone

Well in the UK we had a 2 1/2 hr each way commute in and out of London. That was too far. In Auckland we lived in a $700k house that was 45 mins from CBD, which was reasonable on all fronts apart from the terrible build quality of everything in the market there. In Sydney we have a 90 minute commute, which is a shade too far and the house we're renting (a small basic 4-bed for this middle-income reasonable nice suburb) would cost about $800k to buy, but most new houses of an equivalent size are going for $900k + which is too much for us without funding a lifestyle based on debt. A smaller 3-bed shed-like house within 30-40 min of the CBD would cost upwards of $1.25million. We're not rich!
So I guess we'd ideally like less than an hours commute by public transport, in a reasonably nice area where we could buy a 4 bed house in the $600-$700k range. Obviously it'd be nice to spend less than that, and we'd be prepared to do a fixer-upper in a nicer area with a shorter commute if there was good relaible public transport.


It's not much fun commuting 90 minutes in 45 degree heat here over the summer, and I've experiences Toronto summertime before, which was nowhere near as uncomrortable. Yes, winter would be an adjustment. I have been warned. However, I'm assuming people in Canada don't live in houses that are single-digit ice boxes like they do in NZ so I guess it's mainly going outdoors that is the issue? My Canadian friends in NZ have told me they've never been so cold in their lives until they lived in Kiwi houses over winter. You literally had to peel off layers to go out and dress up in beanie, fleece and rug on the lap when at home. I kid you not.


Does this mean you have to pay for any hospital treatment, and blood tests, scans etc like we do here in Australia? I think we have to pay about 30% of many surgeries unless we part with up to $800pcm for private health insurance, which we don't have. There are not even free GP visits down under. I know dental is equally expensive, when compared to the UK. We've stopped using the exceptionally cheap NHS dental charges as a benchmark though, as really they are the exception in westernised countries, not the norm.


Nope, definitely much cheaper in Toronto for an equivalent sized house with a similar commute. Of course, what real estate websites will not tell me is how build quality compares (very flimsy and poorly constructed here compared to UK houses), or maintenance costs due to very seasonal weather or property taxes.


Anyone care to give me examples of how much property tax they pay, how big their house is and where they live? What is average - ball park figures?


Hell no. I want my kids to live somewhere multicultural.

christmasoompa

I've no idea how hot it gets in Sydney, but if you don't like hot weather then I'd steer clear of the GTA personally. I don't like hot weather either and it gets far too hot and humid there for me (it was the humidity that I couldn't cope with).

But if you're considering the GTA, then you're looking at quite a built up part of Canada, and you'll get all of the things you're trying to avoid - it doesn't seem a fair comparison to me, a 'chocolate box village' versus an industrial sprawl around one of the biggest Canadian cities? And FWIW, I don't think you'd find all of the things you've mentioned every time you decided to leave your house in the UK, unless you do live in a really grotty area.

Is your budget for housing $600-700 or £600-700k? If the latter, then you'd definitely get a 4 bed for less than that where I live (Berkshire) and in most areas commutable to London.

not2old

In the $600k - $800k range of sold properties from yesterday. Top part of each listing shows the property tax.


http://v3.torontomls.net/Live/Pages/...02971&App=TREB

In the $500k - $600k range

http://v3.torontomls.net/Live/Pages/...79d3c&App=TREB

Most all the doctors visits & tests will be covered in Ontario.

Prescriptions & dental as I mentioned are not covered.

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/publi.../services.aspx
.