Pine Cone

This is probably going to sound a little vague, but I'm trying to find gather snippets of information from people who have lived in several different countries. So, I will begin with some background info. Please bear with me as I try and gather my thoughts in a cohesive manner. This probably going to end up as an essay

We have been living in NZ for a number of years now, life was OK and we were pretty settled but were tentatively considering a move to Australia, as there are plentiful work opportunities. No, I don't need advice on visa's before anyone goes down that trail of discussion. Anyway, the earthquakes changed everything and we decided we wanted out of Christchurch. All of our friends were leaving, but rather than make a move to Australia, we decided not to do anything rash and instead did what many others have done and relocated elsewhere in New Zealand. We're now in Auckland and although it's OK here, I'm not raving about the place. Now the dust has settled we are considering our long term options.

We are still considering spending some time in Australia but I'm not convinced it's somewhere for the long haul. I am open-minded and might change my mind after living there for a while though. We could head back to the UK eventually, and I'm sure there is life in the old girl still. But all of our friends in the UK keep telling us that with all the economic and social woes, it is not a good place to return to. Plus I'm not going to waste my life waiting for things to improve there, when it could take years. Like lots of other folk, we seriously looked at Canada before heading to New Zealand, where it was ridiculously easy to get a job offer at the time. Something about Canada still holds a draw for me and I am now wondering whether it is somewhere we could settle for the long term. I've travelled the country extensively, and there are several regions I could see myself living. Whilst Vancouver and Victoria are just fantastic, I'll never again live somewhere with a real risk of large earthquakes. I really like Toronto, and I can see that there are opportunities to be had around Edmonton and Calgary too. Again, I do not need visa advice as we score well above the points threshold for immigration and job offers would not be difficult to obtain.

So I guess, in a roundabout sort of way, that I want to hear from other people who have been in a similar situation of having to decide where to put down long term roots after spending time in several countries, and why you chose where you did.

You might ask what sort of lifestyle we want, and the answer is that we're an adaptable family and we make the most of what is available around us, hence my reason for sounding vague. Over the years we've lived close to a beach (in more than one country) and we've lived close to the mountains, and we've lived in places that were geographically quite benign but had easy access to cultural stuff. I liked all equally and have no strong preferences as long as an area has 'something' going for it. I prefer rural living but I also like the coffee, museums, galleries and festive activities that come with urban/suburban life too. As a result we usually end up in small towns or quiet city suburbs, where we still have relatively easy access to the above. I would prefer to be somewhere that has trees, especially diciduous ones.

What I can say definitely is that in the long term I don't want to be an old person in a cold, draughty and damp Kiwi house. I can adapt to somewhere large and spacious or small and cosy, as long as I am living within my means in a nice neighbourhood. We are not affluent, but neither would we struggle financially to purchase a modest home in a reasonable area in any of the countries I've mentioned.
Weather wise, I prefer to have 4 seasons, as opposed to a wet season and a dry season. New Zealand is very humid compared to Australia, and Auckland feels hotter as a consequence despite the lower summer temperatures. I've heard people moaning about the humid summers of Ontario, but having experienced them first hand I can say that Auckland is worse.
The cold long winters don't phase me, and given all the comments from my Canadian aquaintences here about how cold they have been in New Zealand over winter and how much they didn't expect that in a country with a mild climate, I conclude that as long as you make sensible lifestyle adaptations, built warm houses and dress appropriately for the cold, it's not a big negative.

Next comes the education system. I always thought my kids might consider heading back to live with grandparents in UK while they did Uni. It's not that I have a problem with Uni in New Zealand, but it's a small country and there is very limited choice and it takes a whole extra year to get the full 'honours' bit on your degree, which means more accumulated cost. But the cost of Uni in the UK has soared in the time since we left and is equally expensive for the 3 years it takes to get the standard honours degree. Yes I know some subjects like medicine, dentistry and languages take longer wherever you are. Australia is still an option of course, but how does Uni in Canada stack up? I always imagined it would be really expensive, but I think that is an error on my part for reading all those news articles about how expensive Uni is in the USA and assuming Canada was the same. From a quick look at some of Ontario Uni's it seems the price is very comparable to other countries, so cost would not be a deciding factor. Anyone with older kids care to comment on their experience of Uni in Canada?

And lastly, there is the issue of your old age and medical care. In New Zealand you have to pay to visit a GP and many old people therefore don't seek out medical care unless they are desperate because they end up out of pocket. You know, the "come back in a couple of days if it hasn't improved" type of thing, where you end up paying to see the GP again to get a follow-up check. Plus there are a whole load of medical conditions that have very little coverage compared to NHS. An aquaintance has so far paid about $40k in chemotherapy at a public hospital, because cancer treatment isn't free here. I much prefer the UK's free at the point of use approach, but have concerns that the NHS days as we know it are numbered. I never had an issue with presciption costs, as there was the option of a yearly fixed price pre-payment form if you had to pay for lots of medicines. As I understand it, you also get free GP visits in Canada and pay state health insurance in a similar way to paying national insurance (?), rather than as part of general taxation. I am interested in how the Canadian public health system stacks up against the NHS for those of us who can't afford private health insurance, and what about non-working people such as the elderly, non-working mothers etc. I am aware that both systems are struggling and I'm sure the issue with waiting lists is just the same, but are there any major exclusions that would have been covered by the NHS? Do people die because they can't afford to pay for treatment?

And thankyou to anyone who managed to get to the end of this rather lengthy post without getting bored

Tony-the-Tigger

Interesting post. May I suggest that you now list your specific questions so the thread doesn't deviate too much.

christmasoompa

Hi, and welcome to the Canadian side of the forum!

You don't say when you researched Canada and the visa options, but that side of things has changed dramatically in the past few years and so you may need to look at it again if it was a while ago.

For instance, just having 67 points is no longer enough for a Skilled Worker cat 1 visa, you now also need a year's experience in one of these 29 jobs - http://britishexpats.com/wiki/THE_LIST-Canada

And the 'job offers would not be difficult to obtain' may have changed somewhat since the recession. A job offer may not be a problem if you can find an employer prepared to go through the paperwork/hassle/wait of hiring you, but often the stumbling block is the LMO - as you can imagine, with so many Canadians out of work, proving that none of them could do the job is tricky.

I don't want to be the voice of doom, but if it was a few years ago that you researched Canadian visas, things have got much, much tougher. So maybe just have another look and see if you'd still qualify as a Skilled Worker etc before doing anything else.

There is also loads of info in the Wiki (follow the link in my signature) about healthcare, education, etc, so grab a cuppa and have a good read of that.

Best of luck with it.

woodworm

sorry , this is probably not going to be a productive reply, but what always gets me is the following>

" I don't want to be an old person in a cold, draughty and damp Kiwi house"

what's wrong with people down there that they just don't build a house and insulate it? Why move to a country that's cold most of the year (in most parts of it ) and sit in an insulated Canadian house and wish you were in a warmer climate....

Pine Cone

I have indeed gone back over the most up to date Canadian immigration information. It would have made no sense to persue a potential major international move if there was no realistic possibility of qualifying. We would also never consider such a move without pre-arranged employment in place with a reputable company either. I would not take such a risk with a family in tow. Without going into details, my husband has some quite specialist IT skills in new areas of technology that are in demand despite the worldwide recession, and we have found quite a number of multi-national companies that are either still hiring internationally or accepting people via internal transfers. Plus we are not looking at moving now, as we plan to spend some time in Australia first. The world economy will no doubt have picked back up somewhat by the time we are ready to start with the serious logistics of moving.

christmasoompa

Jolly good. Just bear in mind that moving your family over on a TWP will be a risk to some extent, as your husband will be tied to his employer until he gets PR.

You could also keep an eye on 'the list' of eligible occupations for FSW visas, as it's due to change on 1st July and it's possible that a couple of IT related occupations may be put on it, which would mean you could apply for PR before moving to be a bit more secure.

Good luck.

Pine Cone

I think the quality of New Zealand housing is one of the biggest sore points for most immigrants here, and many returned kiwi's have the same concerns too. But kiwi culture, depsite it's endearing quirks, is extremely change averse. There is a huge amount of red tape, that goes beyond simply making a house earthquake safe, that prevents most people from being able to built a house that comes even close to the standards we are used to in the UK, or USA, Canada, or any other modern country really. You literally can't get high spec insulation materials here, and to import materials requires a huge import tax slapped onto the cost. Double glazing is a very new concept and many people can't seem to get their heads around the benefits, but are happy to wipe down their sodden wet windows, frames and windowsills everyday for 5 months per year, and send their curtains to the drycleaners to get all the mildew and mould removed every spring. I find it unbelivable that people just accept that some of the clothes and shoes in their wardrobe will go mould each winter. I do know other Brits, who have alot more money than we do, who have built as high spec house as possible here. They will never be able to sell the house for close to the money it cost them to achieve that.

Yes the climate is nice 3/4 of the year here, and the landscape is stunning in many areas. But spending every winter trying to keep your poorly insulated, damp house remotely warm and free of mould costs a small fortune because central heating does not exist here, not to mention that actual effort required. Time I would rather spend on other pursuits. And it is possible to embrace winter activities in Canada, or find some interests to keep you busy through the long winter.

Snap Shot

We bailed out of Christchurch in favour of Wanganui last June. We had been there three months and it just wasn't working for us. We couldn't get work and it was all a bit of saga really.

We're settling in Wanganui, where we'll be be for the forseeable future.

Just wanted to remark that we have had insulation put in our house in the ceiling (Pink Batts), and insulation in the floor void. We have had 2 heatpumps installed with two timers so it is similar to central heating. Double glazing uPVC will be installed at the end of April. Not to be facetious, but, would that be cheaper than shipping yourselves and your family to Canada ?

uknzbc

Hi, well it sounds like you are a family that does adapt well so where ever you end up i am sure you will make the best of it.
Anyway we have lived in 4 different countries to date, we have been in NZ for nearly 6 years and we have been unsettled for a while now, NZ is just not for us. We all know the strengths and weaknesses of living here and some love it and some don’t, so we are off to Vancouver. Visas done everything ready just waiting to sell the house and we are gone. For us the attractions to BC are Diving (even though cold), really good skiing, closer for family to visit, closer to return to UK, i really miss the big family do's so it will be easier for us to attend them. Much more opportunity for work and play (Seattle just 2.5 hr drive), more freedom for the dogs (we live in Whangarei and it is really hard to just go for a long walk in the woods for us anyway). We love to travel and BC we see as a hub where NZ is a destination we thought we could cope with but evidently not. Christmas in the Winter I know sounds trivial but I love a winter Christmas doing the beach Christmas we tried it but not for our family we love a winter wonderland for Christmas.
Well I could go on but that is our take on it. We have been to BC a few times now and to be honest I feel so at home there and believe it is our place in the world!
Good luck with your choice and I wish you all the best in your decision.

Pine Cone

If it was simply a case of rubbish housing, which we could fix by some serious renovation, then I'm sure we could make it work in New Zealand. But as I've said, there are other issues such as the healthcare coverage and job opportunities, which are obviously going to be limited in a small country. My husband already works for the largest IT employer in NZ, and for career progression it really is necessary to look offshore. Hence the brain drain that exists here.

The lifestyle here is fantastic in some regards and we have absolutely no regrets about coming here. At the time of our lives that we moved here, we got what we came here for, which was somewhere to bring up our children away from the cotton wool culture of the UK. We've had a blast in many respects. But very simply, it is not somewhere that is going to tick the boxes long term for a whole load of reasons, and I'd rather deal with that issue now, while we are still young enough to have other options.

Pine Cone

The older we get, the more we seem to be moving toward that viewpoint. New Zealand is very isolated, and whilst it hasn't been much an problem for us so far, I can see it becoming more of an issue as our kids get older, and our parents in the UK become more elderly.

ExKiwilass

I understand the isolation thing. Canada is def much more part of the 'world' if you know what I mean.

Graham and Maria

You will have the same problem when facing insulation in Australian housing, I lived in Canberra and was far more uncomfortable in winter and summer that I ever was in the UK.
We have since moved to QLD where we dont get the cold but have to control the humidity/heat with expensive aircon (a lot of the time we just grin and bear it half naked with all the windows open)

I, like you, nearly moved the family to Canada years ago but my loving wife wasn't going to brave the cold, so we comprimised on Aust, I do like it here but I cant shake that longing to 'move on' and would love to experience Canada.
To be honest I would love to try a lot of places and hope we do before I depart this world...I've come to the conclusion I'm a Gypsey

Pine Cone

I feel quite a lot like that. I'm not drawn to Canada because I believe it to be some sort of utopia, as that doesn't exist anywhere. I think it's just that we need different things at different stages of our lives and at some point or another it is necessary to stop bouncing around the globe and settle somewhere long term. That doesn't prevent us from moving around within a country of course, but now we're older I think we'd be better served by having a suitable homebase that will meet out long term needs, and planning a holiday when we get itchy feet rather than packing up everything and moving. At the moment we still have age on our side in terms of work opportunities and qualifying for various visa etc, but we're not going to get any younger. We'll spend some time in Australia before settling somewhere long term simply because we can, there are work opportunities there, and we want to explore the country a bit. This is why I'm less interested in things like a warmer climate and beaches, and more concerned with practicalities such as the healthcare coverage, warm housing, and why other ping pong poms have eventually chosen to put down roots where they have.

nerdherd

You won't get a Christmas wonderland in Vancouver itself. If you drive for a bit out of town that's fine though...