Well prior to writing a few of my feelings i want to be the first(i think)to declare that i am a Christain and proud to be so.i firmly believe that Jesus Christ was real and indeed the "son of God".Further to that i try(and believe me it aint easy!)to adhere to and obey his teachings.There will be those,infact i suspect the majority on this thread,who because of this belief will dogmatically label me a "religious nutter".Fair enough and indeed entirely your porogaive however to those who strongly feel this i issue you a challenge.Take a deep look at yourself and question why you have such strong feelings of anomosity towards those who in essence of their beliefs wish you no harm rather the opposite.Do you not think it slightly strange that you are so passionate in your dis-belief and reluctance to in any to embrace a belief that in reality explains the reason to your very existance and indeed the key to it and your eternal survival.Does the concept of eternal life perhaps frighten you?Is it that deep down some of you actually (though publically i know you will never admit)actually BELIEVE but you realize that the Christain life is the hard choice and its easier to follow the crowd and hence be accepted by your peers?Some claim that us "religious nutters"are weak but please dont utter such nonscense.A life time commitment and not conforming to what is accepted by "society" and thus been astrocized(pardon my speeling)are hardly traits normally displayed by weak people.
I must confess to being astounded by the arrogance displayed by some on site and who so readily condem God as pointless or indeed questioning his very existance to me is mind boggling.I see God every day,not literally obviously but in the beauty in the world he has created.I see him in the innocense of my daughters eyes and in and this is key the love displayed to me.That really is what God is LOVE why are so many threatened by that i wonder......Anyhow,i thought id share a few simple thoughts with you all

I embraced belief because I grew up with it. In my experiences of both the Anglican UK church and also that of a 'born again' christian church which my parents transfered to, I have simply become agnostic rather than pointing the fingers at anyone for being a 'nutter'. Quite simply, my parents are both highly religious, my father because he's a Vicar and my mother because she just 'is'. I respect their decisions, and I can try to see past my father's affairs etc because he's still my father and I do love him regardless of his mistakes.

In my experience of 'behind the scenes' of the church, the organisation sucks, which is generally what gives it a bad name.
If you want to get into proper religious dogma, let's talk about the Church's reluctance to accept gay people into the church, if they're 'practicing' and yet I know of gay vicars and bishops. There's too much hypocrisy within religion imo, which is why having been there and done that, I choose just to try to live a good life and if there really is anything out there, then I'm happy to accept that. Just what it is or who it is really is another question.

I don't see god every day. I see the poor of Darfur starving ... Where is Jesus in Darfur, tot?
Suffer the little children to come unto me... ? Hmmmm.

I currently do not need a god in my life because I'm quite ok with myself. I don't need a book to read to get me in touch with my spirituality or my soul... I can do that by taking a walk out here every day and enjoying the beauty of my surroundings.
Spirituality doesn't have to be religious.

Lot of anger simmering under the surface there. Your behaviour is fairly typical of a Christian ... assume the moral high-ground and suggest that there's some 'end game' awaiting us. You just sound scared, to be honest. You toe the line because of some glittering prize at the end of it - not because, for instance, you might respect your fellow man. The 'god' that you and your fellow cult members in all the myriad organised religions that the weak flock to are responsible for more crimes against humanity than the last century's world wars. Makes you proud, doesn't it.

i believe too... but as it says in the bible, pray everyday to yourself. i have no problem with any religion at all. it's what is done each and everyday throughout the world in the "name of religion" i ask you this, is not god the god of all "people of the book" the one and only god? why then is the world in such turmoil ........if god is good then who's side is he on? and why is it, to be a good "follower of faith" it is so hard? if you commit just a little sin you go to hell? I really don't understand organised religion and believe me i have tried. I prefer to keep it as Jesus said....."about what is inside"......just because i don't go to church doesn't make me a bad person....... as for folks who think religion is "rubbish" ... it's hardly surprising considering the world we live in....... he doesn't seem to active these days......where is god when children get abused then?.......explain that (especially when children get raped by "holy men"...)didn't see that bit in the bible........

No anger my friend just sadness when i hear people turning their back on the very thing that created them.Im somewhat puzzled why i appear scared perhaps i am but i dont think so because im not particuarly afraid of dyingf as because as you quite rightly asserted there IS a glittering prize at the end and tbh in renders life and a lot of its inherrant squabbles rather irrelevant at times.

We should be accurate. It's usually people who are responsible for crimes against humanity, not god.

It's usually done in the name of god though ... but god did just create people, and let them get on with it. I think that's fairly poor management imo.
I guess he made a mistake or two.


I don't think Tot is angry. It's difficult to say what he's said on a thread where people patently don't agree with him, so he does deserve a little kudos for being brave. He's probably afraid you'll all bite him.

I don't slag anyone off for what they personally believe ... I'm more interested in the person. It's only when the religion has taken over the person and you can't find said person any more, then you have to wonder.
And I speak from personal experience there ...

Ipom,thanks for the reply im unable to give any satisfactory answers regarding the suffering of Children indeed any suffering.Heck,i wished i did because these things trouble me as well but i do believe everything has a purpose......

Don't be sad, tot. Just because you believe something different to everyone else, it doesn't mean you're right. As we respect you for believing in a supreme being, you must respect others for choosing not to believe in that. Otherwise, you're not being fair.


Really, dying's no big deal. I've nearly done it myself having my son. I was nearly there.
Your opinion that there's a glittering prize is just opinion. It's not fact.

I think we've managed to keep this fairly civilised with a broad range of experiences so far. It would be a shame to go into any sort of extremist ranting, because we don't agree.

Just because the bible exists, doesn't mean there's a god, Tot.

Where do you stand on the apocrypha? (And don't say 'on the top of it') I think that's a very fundamental question for Christians to answer.

I can't see any purpose in torture, abuse, needless death of any sort... That's where I don't see god, but then there's this weird idea that God should step in and intervene.
God gave man dominion.... etc. ie - he let us get on with it. Man's the problem, not god imo.
God doesn't intervene. That's our job.


Nice chatting. Must go to bed.

Most intelligent thread on BE ever.... imo.

Classic. I'll give you 8 out of 10 on the clap-o-meter for that one. "The very thing that created them."

I didn't assert it - I mentioned that Christians do.

Very true. Since 'god' doesn't exist, how can 'he' be responsible. 'Man' visits harm and abuse on man in the name of a higher power.

Piss-poor autobiographers for a start.

Yea... so do I. My uncle is a vicar, my aunt one of the first women priests. I was raised hardline Catholic and was being groomed (and I use that word quite deliberately) to join the priesthood. The mistake the Catholics made was educating me ... they should have kept me in sack-cloth and built intimidating churches like the old days and they may well have won me over.

My Aunt is also a woman priest... one of the first... Anglican though. Wonder if they know each other?

Funny those that were close to religion have much more probs with it than others who find it in later life, I think.


Def going to bed now.

doesn't the bible say there will be death and destruction and a few people will be saved and then it's the new time with no pain and suffering? i see lots of mad end times stuff around....is that... 'Everything has a purpose?"........ i think the earth was heaven and man has turned it into hell.....what about the mad usa evangelist that believe that europe is the evil power lead by the anti christ...what next!!!!!!

And if not war, then ramming it down everyone else's throats and trying to force us all to live according to their beliefs and values. It is a fair and valid comment that people do find comfort in their faith. And yes, I agree that can be of enormous help to people in time of grief and other challenges. Perhaps separating faith from religious doctrine is what is key. I've never gotten much out of religion, but there have been times when faith has gotten me through difficult times, just like others.

I don't think you're a nutter, in a way I envy you your conviction.
It must be quite comforting to think that no matter how terrible things are there is a loving God who is doing it all for a reason. (That is not intended to come across as sarcastic, before anyone jumps down my throat.)

Why - I have often wondered how organised religion got so powerful when there is that section in the bible (I can't reference it) where Jesus (if he existed etc) tells people that they can only communicate with God one on one. I noticed it when I was quite young. (Went to CofE school, although not brought up religious at home) As I grew up, I think that was one of the things that made me more cynical about 'religion', meaning organised religion. That and the church asking for money, and the corruption of some church leaders, and the catholic church reducing women to diseased breed mares. (Yes I'm being extreme, and no I'm not talking about anyone on here who may be catholic, I refer to the CC stance against contraception and abortion in many countries).

Whilst I'm here though, coz I have to go to work soon, can I say how great it is to have a thread that has mostly been interesting debate without degrading in to personal insults (although we're getting close) or a discussion about UK v Oz (although I bet we could get there in three easy steps). Well done us! It would be good to see more interesting debate on here. Have a good day everyone!

Hutch.

I don't think it's acceptable to purposefuly manipulate the 'reply with quote' function - even if it IS to try and prove your point. Badly I might add.

Post reported.

Graham