Word coming out the the EU overnight is that the other EU leaders are not playing ball, even with Cameron's very weak and watery supposed agreement with the EU bureaucrats.

Is it just theatrics to make Cameron look like he has won something substantial? Maybe, but the words coming out look as if more than that; that it's real intransigence on the part of the EU.

I'm kind of wondering if Cameron will emerge after tomorrow's negotiation saying 'right, all out'. I'd say the odds have shifted noticeably both the limited nature of the agreement, and the fact that Cameron can't even get them to sign up to that.

EU referendum: 'No progress' so far on Cameron's talks - BBC News

Yeah, right. The EU is still the most powerful economy in the world, and that's not even counting super-rich nations like Norway or Switzerland that are part of Europe but not the EU. Norway could join though in the future, as their economy could benefit greatly from being part of the EU, without the current (but sensible from the EU perspective) inhibitions that prevent some of their main industries from developing further due to certain limitations, like only being able to sell base products without the ability to process them and change the game altogether (of course they could still sell... but duties imposed would be heavier).

I would love to see the same analogy applied to the Premier League. Club X wins the EPL. And then the classic whingers attacking the club for not being effective enough, LOL.

There is growth and decision-making is done right, just look at the results. There is no over-regulation unless you are representing a mobile phone company pissed off at not being able to steal on a grand scale on roaming charges or an airline not being able to treat European consumers like garbage. Fair enough, if you represent corporations then there is definitely OVER-REGULATION that goes against you. As a person and EU citizen you are the CLEAR winner though.

Even on an international scale we are able to come together and tackle a divisive issue such as Russia. They would want nothing more than to cripple and divide the EU. Why do you think they've been pumping money into all the anti-EU parties across Europe? Russia is weak and helpless when having to confront the EU. But if it could divide the continent into small, separate entities, then suddenly its position would be much stronger. Even the US President is sending a clear message to the UK: you are much STRONGER in the EU and we want to see a STRONG UK in a STRONG EU.

No the EU is not working. If, Astera, you are lucky enough to live in Australia with its 6% unemployment rate then you are likely to be working. However. in the EU unemployment is 11.4%. The Labour Force Participation rate is 57% in Europe compared to 64% in Australia. This is pathetic. If you are Greek or Portuguese then your future is bleak in the EU and you are a victim of the Economic straightjacket that is the Euro - a currency that even its founders admit is a political project. Quite simply the project is failing. Growth is approximately 1% across the whole continent. The EU’s economic woes have many causes, but intrusively regulated economies and outsized government spending on generous social welfare transfers are two of the most important.
If you think the EU is such a wonderful project why don't you buy an airline ticket and try your luck there - believe me you will need it.

Also stop pretending that the EU is a model of democracy. Much of the decision making powers are held by the Council of the European Union and the European Commission both of which are are appointed by or made up from representatives (such as Governments, political parties). This is at best indirectly democratic, I call it an additional layer of government taking decision making away from the people.

Also your opinion on the EU and Russia is laughable. Has the EU resolved the Ukrainian crisis? has it fronted up to Putin? The answer to both questions is a resounding no.

In summary; floundering economy, democratic deficit, lack of foreign policy unity, collapsing open borders, lack of answers to the migrant crisis, divergent economies, unemployment, virtual zero growth - thank God I became an Australian.

I wish they would hurry up and get on with this referendum. The sooner Britain can depart the EU the better. There is part of me though, that feels it won't happen no matter what the referendum result is.

I believe your condition is called Cognitive Dissonance

Here we go again. You could probably replace the EU with the name of any other country and keep on arguing this way...

Hmm, so stripping UK nationals of the right to work freely across the continent is really going to help us, isn't it?

Employment rates change along with economic conditions, what kind of argument is that? Aren't there entire neighbourhoods in the UK where the majority of residents are on social welfare? Analogously, does that mean the UK doesn't work?

And you're using Greece as an example? Like they should be blaming ANYONE else but themselves for unemployment? Are you serious here?

Also, nothing wrong with the Euro except for the British press brainwashing people with doomsday scenarios. In fact it's a way more solid currency than the Pound, which can get kicked around by global speculators like a football due to it being a dinky, little currency compared to something bigger that encompasses numerous countries in what is the world's most powerful economy.

Greece could have easily left the Eurozone. Go look at how they're doing everything to stay in. Luckily the people making decisions there are not getting their information from the Daily Mail and are not letting tabloids form their opinions.

I already have, ages ago. And I'm not trying my luck, just taking advantage of the fact that we are still European Union citizens.

You vote for MEPs and then they ultimately validate the European Commission members. The Council is mainly comprised of a single representative from every member state.

What on Earth are you bickering about? That you don't get to directly choose the European Council President, that there are no silly campaigns carried out across the EU as candidates parade themselves and start promising various states different things to win their votes (in which case they wouldn't even bother visiting low population places like Malta)?

The current system works very well. Trust me, much smarter people than yourself set this up and so far it's working better than any other country's political system.

Here we go again. Good for you, sit here... and by all means don't go back to terrible Europe. Embrace your new paradise. There's no need to renew your old passport since things are so bad over there, right?

Here you have a great political system with mining corporations able to depose a PM at a whim, where PMs keep back-stabbing each other and act as unelected leaders all the time (even Shakespeare couldn't have imagined the way things work here). Oh and what an innovative economy this is, 22nd in the world. And who makes up the global top 25? 16 of them are European nations.

Don't get me wrong, Australia is great in terms of wages, especially for job sectors that don't carry similar wages in other parts of the world. And during a resource boom cycle the currency can become tremendously overvalued to the point where it's almost comical, though it does allow Australians to get a lot of bang for their buck abroad during those times.

Aren't you the expert? Only military force or economic pressure can have any effect. Militarily, in terms of conventional warfare, it would hardly be an effort by NATO to swipe Russia and its backwards technology aside, which is why they have been blackmailing the West by threatening to wipe out a NATO capitol (one of the smaller ones, probably something from the Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia trio) should the West intervene.

I would have opted for arming the Ukrainians too, but the decision was made to strangle Russia financially. And so far Russia is trying to put on a brave face, but they are being bankrupted at an astounding pace. They have two large funds that were supposed to secure the dictatorship's future, and apparently one has already been wiped out. Things are looking much uglier there than they will admit, just give them time. Right now we have Russia exactly where we want them, sinking by the day and powerless to get out of this position.

The EU is clearly in decline and has pressed the self destruct button.
Uncompetitive, Endless waste, Endless bureaucracy, Corruption, Dictatorial, Undemocratic.........

The main aims were cast to one side in a desperate attempt to form a Federal Europe that no one wants, to save a Flawed currency which will inevitably run into much more trouble and an open border policy which is already up shit creek without a paddle.

The UKs expanding and profitable Global trade has already overtaken it's EU trade which shows an ever increasing massive deficit.

There's a great big world out there and the UK more than any other country has all that is required to exploit it.

The good ship EU is doomed to disaster with all hands on board.
I hope we are well clear when it goes under.

Sounds like you're describing most national governments more than anything.

I would love to hear about the endless waste... compared to the UK. Or the endless bureaucracy compared to the UK. Same with corruption or the whole dictatorial/undemocratic thing.

Last time I checked the only country in the world with a bigger mess in tax-related legislation than the UK... is India. And still big corporations are having a laugh whilst UK residents are treated in a dictatorial way.

Let's take a hypothetical situation: your parents hand over their property to you. It is now yours, the deeds are in your name etc. Can you do what you want with it? Can you even let your parents live there for free without any serious repercussions from the gov't?

Nope. Let me see, endless bureaucracy with the intention of screwing over the ordinary person, dictatorial style, corruption (how many politicians have squirmed away from their very own laws?)... seems a perfect fit.

Of course similarly to the migration issue it does rather suit the gov't very well that people are directing their attention and blaming the EU for everything as opposed to looking at their own leaders.

Actually no, there's plenty of countries doing just fine outside the EU.


It is one that says the European project is not creating jobs when other parts of the world are. Even David Cameron has said this.Perhaps you are a simpleton if you do not understand that.

and of course nothing to do with the economic straightjacket called the euro that prevents them from taking the economic action they need to take.Also, nothing wrong with the Euro except for....the fact it doesn't work for you unless you are a German

Apologies, I should be doffing my cap to my betters. After all politicians have such a great record on making decisions.


You are Right on this one (but even a broken clock is right twice a day). I actually barbequed my EU passport in front of 100 family and friends. It was entirely liberating. I dont want or need an EU passport.

If you are deleting part of a quoted post, could you make sure you don't delete the end quote part (looks like this [/quote] ) otherwise it messes up future quotes making things difficult to read. And if you are going to break up a quote please check before posting as that post of yours was not clear to see what was quoted and what was your post.

Ta muchly

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(Especially) to Astera:

Link to

http://campaignforanindependentbrita...uros-a-Day.pdf

by Marta Andreason, who many will know as an MEP who was villified for years for daring to speak the truth about the incompetence and corruption permeating the EU.

And the best speech I can remember by an elected politician, Gove, who as Justice minister has seen it all:

For weeks now I have been wrestling with the most difficult decision of my political life. But taking difficult decisions is what politicians are paid to do. No-one is forced to stand for Parliament, no-one is compelled to become a minister. If you take on those roles, which are great privileges, you also take on big responsibilities.

I was encouraged to stand for Parliament by David Cameron and he has given me the opportunity to serve in what I believe is a great, reforming Government. I think he is an outstanding Prime Minister. There is, as far as I can see, only one significant issue on which we have differed.

And that is the future of the UK in the European Union.

It pains me to have to disagree with the Prime Minister on any issue. My instinct is to support him through good times and bad.

But I cannot duck the choice which the Prime Minister has given every one of us. In a few months time we will all have the opportunity to decide whether Britain should stay in the European Union or leave. I believe our country would be freer, fairer and better off outside the EU. And if, at this moment of decision, I didn’t say what I believe I would not be true to my convictions or my country.

I don’t want to take anything away from the Prime Minister’s dedicated efforts to get a better deal for Britain. He has negotiated with courage and tenacity. But I think Britain would be stronger outside the EU.

My starting point is simple. I believe that the decisions which govern all our lives, the laws we must all obey and the taxes we must all pay should be decided by people we choose and who we can throw out if we want change. If power is to be used wisely, if we are to avoid corruption and complacency in high office, then the public must have the right to change laws and Governments at election time.

But our membership of the European Union prevents us being able to change huge swathes of law and stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which affect all our lives. Laws which govern citizens in this country are decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and can’t throw out. We can take out our anger on elected representatives in Westminster but whoever is in Government in London cannot remove or reduce VAT, cannot support a steel plant through troubled times, cannot build the houses we need where they’re needed and cannot deport all the individuals who shouldn’t be in this country. I believe that needs to change. And I believe that both the lessons of our past and the shape of the future make the case for change compelling.

The ability to choose who governs us, and the freedom to change laws we do not like, were secured for us in the past by radicals and liberals who took power from unaccountable elites and placed it in the hands of the people. As a result of their efforts we developed, and exported to nations like the US, India, Canada and Australia a system of democratic self-government which has brought prosperity and peace to millions.

Our democracy stood the test of time. We showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves.

In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders.

Far from providing security in an uncertain world, the EU’s policies have become a source of instability and insecurity. Razor wire once more criss-crosses the continent, historic tensions between nations such as Greece and Germany have resurfaced in ugly ways and the EU is proving incapable of dealing with the current crises in Libya and Syria. The former head of Interpol says the EU’s internal borders policy is “like hanging a sign welcoming terrorists to Europe” and Scandinavian nations which once prided themselves on their openness are now turning in on themselves. All of these factors, combined with popular anger at the lack of political accountability, has encouraged extremism, to the extent that far-right parties are stronger across the continent than at any time since the 1930s.

The EU is an institution rooted in the past and is proving incapable of reforming to meet the big technological, demographic and economic challenges of our time. It was developed in the 1950s and 1960s and like other institutions which seemed modern then, from tower blocks to telexes, it is now hopelessly out of date. The EU tries to standardise and regulate rather than encourage diversity and innovation. It is an analogue union in a digital age.

The EU is built to keep power and control with the elites rather than the people. Even though we are outside the euro we are still subject to an unelected EU commission which is generating new laws every day and an unaccountable European Court in Luxembourg which is extending its reach every week, increasingly using the Charter of Fundamental Rights which in many ways gives the EU more power and reach than ever before. This growing EU bureaucracy holds us back in every area. EU rules dictate everything from the maximum size of containers in which olive oil may be sold (five litres) to the distance houses have to be from heathland to prevent cats chasing birds (five kilometres).

Individually these rules may be comical. Collectively, and there are tens of thousands of them, they are inimical to creativity, growth and progress. Rules like the EU clinical trials directive have slowed down the creation of new drugs to cure terrible diseases and ECJ judgements on data protection issues hobble the growth of internet companies. As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer.

It is hard to overstate the degree to which the EU is a constraint on ministers’ ability to do the things they were elected to do, or to use their judgment about the right course of action for the people of this country. I have long had concerns about our membership of the EU but the experience of Government has only deepened my conviction that we need change. Every single day, every single minister is told: ‘Yes Minister, I understand, but I’m afraid that’s against EU rules’. I know it. My colleagues in government know it. And the British people ought to know it too: your government is not, ultimately, in control in hundreds of areas that matter.

But by leaving the EU we can take control. Indeed we can show the rest of Europe the way to flourish. Instead of grumbling and complaining about the things we can’t change and growing resentful and bitter, we can shape an optimistic, forward-looking and genuinely internationalist alternative to the path the EU is going down. We can show leadership. Like the Americans who declared their independence and never looked back, we can become an exemplar of what an inclusive, open and innovative democracy can achieve.

We can take back the billions we give to the EU, the money which is squandered on grand parliamentary buildings and bureaucratic follies, and invest it in science and technology, schools and apprenticeships. We can get rid of the regulations which big business uses to crush competition and instead support new start-up businesses and creative talent. We can forge trade deals and partnerships with nations across the globe, helping developing countries to grow and benefiting from faster and better access to new markets.

We are the world’s fifth largest economy, with the best armed forces of any nation, more Nobel Prizes than any European country and more world-leading universities than any European country. Our economy is more dynamic than the Eurozone, we have the most attractive capital city on the globe, the greatest “soft power” and global influence of any state and a leadership role in NATO and the UN. Are we really too small, too weak and too powerless to make a success of self-rule? On the contrary, the reason the EU’s bureaucrats oppose us leaving is they fear that our success outside will only underline the scale of their failure.

This chance may never come again in our lifetimes, which is why I will be true to my principles and take the opportunity this referendum provides to leave an EU mired in the past and embrace a better future.
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I personally believe that the UK should be outside the EU and never have joined it in the first place - in doing so they broke the bonds with the countries that had made them great. Yet another example of the UK snaking the people that had always came to their side in their hour of need

but

It's now too late to leave as the UK is too intertwined with Europe. Leaving will cause more harm than good and the best that they can do is to keep renegotiating their terms of membership

They should do an Ireland and become a low-tax haven for business within the EU

I also think Gove needs to really see the capabilities of the UK for what they are in the early 21st century - 'the best armed forces of any nation'? The 6 submarine, 19 surface combatant, 7 fast jet squadrons, no MR/ASW aircraft, 80000 troops, 250 Main Battle Tanks armed forces the best in the world? Keep kidding yourself Gove, your nation cannot defend itself. End of

>> It's now too late to leave as the UK is too intertwined with Europe. Leaving will cause more harm than good and the best that they can do is to keep renegotiating their terms of membership > I also think Gove needs to really see the capabilities of the UK for what they are in the early 21st century - 'the best armed forces of any nation'? The 6 submarine, 19 surface combatant, 7 fast jet squadrons, no MR/ASW aircraft, 80000 troops, 250 Main Battle Tanks armed forces the best in the world? Keep kidding yourself Gove, your nation cannot defend itself. End of

(EDITED) :MODERATOR For several days now my posts have been drastically truncated - this is an example: most of it has not appeared. I don't know what is going on!
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Are you by any chance using a combination of less than and more than symbols?

For some reason, text between these symbols disappears so mods have stopped using them when we snip and replaced with stars. There is a thread about it in site feedback.