knockoff nige

It's quite telling that you don't see the difference. Both are wrong but calling a black guy an ape is much worse. Being Irish, I get a fair share of comments about my Irishness or Irish jokes directed at me. It's not pleasant to hear them as much as I do but they are not on the same scale as racist abuse. Have a think about that.

Not trying to get out of trouble. I genuinely think you have a small mind.

Beoz

Another personal insult. Brilliant

They are exactly the same thing. How do you determine they are not?

knockoff nige

You called OzTennis a racist. For someone who throws it around, you are very sensitive.

Humans came from apes. Calling a black guy an ape is calling him unevolved. Considering that black people in Australia are still fighting for equality, racist abuse is worse than an insult to a person with red hair or with Irish heritage, even if they are both. Maybe pick up history book for a better explanation.

Beoz

Really. Considering the history of the Irish, and its struggles against famine, politics, poverty and its massive migrantion history over a great deal time, I really struggle to see the difference. For what its worth, indigenous people in Australia are treated beyond equally. They get everything the rest of us get and more. What are they fighting for if you mind me asking?

I like the way you justify the ape thing. That's superb. I did have a chuckle.

knockoff nige

No mate, I wouldn't try and justify the ape thing. If either of us did that, you did.

So in your opinion, aboriginal people are treated better than white people in Australia? I think you're lost and there's probably no saving you from being so blinkered.

You can't see the difference between Irish history and Aboriginal australia? You definitely need to pick up a history book then.

Beoz

Yep. So tell me then. How are indigenous people treated worse than white people today in Australia?

knockoff nige

If you don't acknowledge racism, what would be the point?

Beoz

On the contrary. If you are going to serve up this shit and divide, and breed racism, then why stop at one group of people.

GarryP

Facts go like this nige:

The spend on the aboriginal population is 2.25 times that of the non-aboriginal population - $25bn+. Which is in anybody's book a significant extra investment in one, specific, racially defined, part of the population. If you want a laugh, take a look at this link, and the mental gymnastics he goes through to try and talk down that spend. Count the number of times he says 'rights'.

$25.4 billion spent on Aboriginal disadvantage is a lie | The Stringer

In addition, if you are applying for jobs, you will find many that are "Open only to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander members of the community", together with the little check box you can tick as an "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander", which basically guarantees you an interview (if only to make the 'discrimination' stats look good).

So there's some significant discrimination in favour of aboriginal communities. Now, what discrimination do you want to point to that's against those aboriginal communities?

JoeBloggs80

25 billion is a lot, but really is a drop in the ocean compared to the generations of neglect, abuse and disadvantage suffered.

The indigenous community still has:

Significantly lower life expectancy
Almost double the infant mortality rate
Less than half the rate of completed high school education
10 times the rate of unemployment
24 times higher rate of juvenile incarceration

etc

So I guess you either want to try and help turn this around by some 'positive dicrimination', or you just think it's all their own fault and leave them to it.

Or you just don't care, I suppose that is the outlook of a lot of people.

GarryP

Hmm, well $25bn is a pretty big drop, or rather the $14bn extra that's there over the amount spent elsewhere. And 'neglect, abuse and disadvantage' is begging the question; wasn't the statement made that 'interference' was a problem? Can't have it both ways.

Great. And here's the exam question - is it working?

Pretty obviously we have been piling in money to 'fix it' for decades now - so has it been fixed?

I think we both know the answer to that one.

So maybe, just maybe, money isn't the problem?

Personally I'd be all for funding schemes that fixed the problem (remember, as far as the far-right types here are concerned, I'm supposed to be a lefty). You fund the scheme, things get better, the funding isn't needed any more. What I'm not a fan of is continually piling money and 'positive' discrimination in - and getting NOTHING out. It's not even that the money is needed to keep it fixed (though that would be bad enough). Instead the money goes in and NOTHING comes out.

At that point you really need to consider the approach a failure, and do something else.

I'd contend a few things:

• The discrimination is NOT positive. Instead it's part of the problem, helping both to cause resentment in the bogans (who are also not well off), and a culture that thinks they have a right to X, Y, & Z (as demonstrated above). A 'hands out' dependency culture just doesn't help people stand on their own feet.
• It's all very well saying you are 'connected to the land' and have 'religious locations' etc. - but it doesn't change the fact you are in the middle of nowhere, with no jobs, and no way of making industry/commerce that makes jobs. The realistic fact of life is that unless you fix that, as a community, you are never going to survive long term in anything other than a hunter/gatherer lifestyle.
• Anyone growing there that has any get up and go, gets up and goes. There is a reason Goodes is living in Sydney - and it's to personally benefit from the lifestyle that a working city affords. That leaves those that can't in those communities - further damning them to decay.
• Much is made of the 'aboriginal culture' - but the reality is outside the tourist fodder it's broken. Violence, drink, drugs, child abuse, the kids not going to school and the father in jail for the crimes he's committed. It's not a positive attribute, it's something that needs reform. That reform is not coming from within (see above) and if someone tries to do it from without, they get accused of 'racial insensitivity'. It is pretty ridiculous when the government funds the building of a school (where non-aboriginal communities wouldn't get one) and fund for a teacher to live in the middle of nowhere - and then has a kid burn down the classroom because they don't want to go to lessons.

You want the reasons behind your laundry list of "the indigenous community still has", well the above are the reasons why. Just putting more money into that, or having more "Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander only" job discrimination, won't make the necessary changes. It's not about the money, its about the culture and being hard hearted enough to say "it's the problem and needs to change".

'Or you just don't care ....'

JoeBloggs80

Agree that just throwing money at it and saying that is doing something clearly is not the answer. The funding has to be focused, etc. Think there has been some small advances in certain areas over the years though, some of the gaps have been shortened, so not NOTHING.

I think basic things like making certain jobs only available to Indigenious people is a good example of 'positive discrimination' despite your sneering. How is that making them dependent? Surely it is encouraging them to get into a cycle of employment and improvement which is what you later argue?

Its obviously a very difficult problem to resolve overall, one the indigenous communities argue over themselves, don't think you can take that one article above you posted as representative as a whole. There won't be, and clearly hasn't been, changes overnight. There is no easy blanket solution. The geographical and cultural problems you point out I agree with and are particularly challenging. If there is a solution it'll take a long time and be bloody difficult.

I certainly don't have the answers. I think we have to try though. Its just a really sad and f**ked up situation and a blight on the country really.

Beoz

Or put it this way, if the British had not colonized Australia a little over 200 years ago, where would life expectancy be? Where would the infant mortality rate be? Would there be any schools? What about jobs? Crime?

No idea, but one would assume there would be some type of western ideals in place. A government maybe? Don't know.

The point being is that the British colonized Australia, at times along its journey their have been mis-treatments, segregation, and loads of adaptability issues for both white and black.

Part of the issue with throwing money at the problem is the white money is designed help make indigenous people more like white people. Is that really what they want or need - well they do now. No turning back to a nomadic existence living in the dreamtime.

Really what's needed here is division breakdowns. Not an easy task as history shows but the more we divide, the slower the progression, whether that division is created by white people or black people. For white people that's frowned upon now. Not so much frowned upon for black people.

GarryP

Hmm, the cynic in me thinks that a sizeable percentage of that 'shortening' has been people fixing the metrics. Some of which I've seen for myself.

I think it's racism.

I also think that if the jobs are in the city then it just supports that 'get up and go' problem I outlined. Either way it causes resentment (rightly in my opinion) and doesn't say "you have to measure up to your peers".

Oh, and it does nothing to create real jobs where the bulk of the aboriginal peoples are.

But you have to consider the position of the Vietnamese boat people. They turned up in Australia with absolutely nothing, got a relatively minor amount of gov support, and are now just a general component of our society. You certainly can't say they were any better off from a racism/discrimination standpoint. If they can do that, in that time frame, then you can't get away with saying "if there is a solution it'll take a long time". You have to admit, its had enough time, it isn't working, need to do something different.

On that we agree, but when you look at the shape of the problem, the need for significant culture change, then I think the actions needed would get labelled as 'racist' or 'colonial' by people like you. Things like saying "you have ten years to become self-sufficient, then the money stops". Or saying "you make sure your kids are in school, otherwise they are taken away because you are an incompetent parent". Basically a transition to being treated the same as everyone else.

Can you imagine the screams from the SJWs?

Amazulu

Massive fan of British colonisation. Loved the way they went round the world uninvited, kicked the door in, laid the slap down and said 'we own your asses now bitchez'

Britain built much of the awesome western, new world that is such a top place. The left is trying their best to destroy it, islamify it, make it more 3rd world but they haven't succeeded yet and it is still a great place to live