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Old May 21st 2011 | 12:36 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Autism has nothing to do with vaccines. If you do not vaccinate the chances of Autism are the same. Signs of autism start showing around the time of some vaccines.

Current research indicates genetics but there is a lot of work to do.

Autism is also not caused by the mother, not cured by chellation, cannot be cured and not helped by homeopathy. There many snakeoil sellers out there sucking money out of parents giving treatments of no benefit. Not aimed at you PP but thanks for giving me a chance to get it off my chest.

Originally Posted by Professional Princess
This is my point exactly, everyone is slating those that dont vaccinate their kids, but they dont know their personal history.

I said earlier on in the thread that I will not have the whooping cough vaccine and yes I know there have been quite a few cases of whooping cough in Perth but I choose not to have this vaccine as I know how I react to vaccines so why should I purposely make myself ill for the good of others?

Now I just think people need to take a step back and not judge parents that make the choice not to vaccinate their kids and not accuse them of being cruel/uncaring.

My friend/ex colleague's young lad developed huge problems after his vaccines, he is now severely autistic. This may or may not be linked but surely she has the right to be scared?

In most people, probably vaccines are safe but there are always people that cannot take vaccines, that are made ill from them and I cannot imagine what it must be like for a parent who has had a child suffer such an adverse reaction, that it throws their whole vaccination program into doubt.

Blame them for not vaccinating their kids if the child gets whooping cough, mumps etc, and accuse them of putting them at risk.

Blame them for vaccinating their kids if the kid suffers a severe and life threatening reaction and accuse them of putting them at risk.

Either way, I am sure the decisions are not taken lightly but we should take a step back without knowing why people do things - they probably have their own reasons for feeling the way they do.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 1:02 pm
  #182  
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
My eldest showed signs of Autism after the MMR. I could put 2 and 2 together and make 5 or look at the enourmous body of evidence that shows no linkage.
You should've got in touch with Wakefield - imagine how conclusive the results of his research could've been with 13 kids!
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 1:08 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Even worse is he selected the subjects to suit the outcome he wanted due to a court case he was a witness in.

Originally Posted by bcworld
You should've got in touch with Wakefield - imagine how conclusive the results of his research could've been with 13 kids!
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 1:39 pm
  #184  
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

How do people feel about polio? Is vaccination for this still common, or as it is now almost eradicated is it unnecessary?
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 5:37 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
Autism has nothing to do with vaccines. If you do not vaccinate the chances of Autism are the same.
Ok, I'm not saying that you are wrong here, but I am genuinely interested in how you know this? My GP told me that there had never been any studies done comparing the health of vaccinated against unvaccinated children, but granted it was a few years ago he told me that.

I would be really interested in seeing the details of the study if you have them

I do actually know of one study which was done ages ago, but it was small scale (not funded by the vaccine manufacturers) and I'm not sure how tight the controls actually were.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 5:50 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Hundreds of studies and plenty of immunologists. Your GP must be blind. I would change GP if I were you, not because of his/ her beliefs but because he is less aware of the studies than myself who has no medical training. What a disgrace.

Originally Posted by Sunshine7
Ok, I'm not saying that you are wrong here, but I am genuinely interested in how you know this? My GP told me that there had never been any studies done comparing the health of vaccinated against unvaccinated children, but granted it was a few years ago he told me that.

I would be really interested in seeing the details of the study if you have them

I do actually know of one study which was done ages ago, but it was small scale (not funded by the vaccine manufacturers) and I'm not sure how tight the controls actually were.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 6:21 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
Hundreds of studies and plenty of immunologists. Your GP must be blind. I would change GP if I were you, not because of his/ her beliefs but because he is less aware of the studies than myself who has no medical training. What a disgrace.
Comparing the health of vaccinated to unvaccinated children? Could you link to some - general health ones (i.e. asthma/diabetes/autoimmune etc) as well as autism if you could, that would be really interesting. Are they very new studies?

I had no idea any such study had been done, never mind hundreds of them.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 6:28 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
Autism has nothing to do with vaccines. If you do not vaccinate the chances of Autism are the same. Signs of autism start showing around the time of some vaccines.

Current research indicates genetics but there is a lot of work to do.

Autism is also not caused by the mother, not cured by chellation, cannot be cured and not helped by homeopathy. There many snakeoil sellers out there sucking money out of parents giving treatments of no benefit. Not aimed at you PP but thanks for giving me a chance to get it off my chest.
Fair enough

But what should a parent do if her child has reacted severely to a vaccine, should she carry on with the rest of the vaccines?

I think at the least vaccines should be done singly and not all at once to save time/money or assume the parents will forget to follow up.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 6:34 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by Sunshine7
Comparing the health of vaccinated to unvaccinated children? Could you link to some - general health ones (i.e. asthma/diabetes/autoimmune etc) as well as autism if you could, that would be really interesting. Are they very new studies?

I had no idea any such study had been done, never mind hundreds of them.


No kidding...there's been hundreds hey? Someone better tell the very pro-vaccination folks at SBM that they're sadly off the mark...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=939

The usual argument against such studies are that they are unethical (ie. is is unethical to deny vaccines to a control group) and therefore cannot be be undertaken.

Last edited by Japonica; May 21st 2011 at 6:55 pm.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 8:16 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

It depends on the cause and type of reaction as to whether all vaccines should be avoided or just certain types. For those who cannot be vaccinated, increased rates across the whole population are even more critical.

Originally Posted by Professional Princess
Fair enough

But what should a parent do if her child has reacted severely to a vaccine, should she carry on with the rest of the vaccines?

I think at the least vaccines should be done singly and not all at once to save time/money or assume the parents will forget to follow up.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 8:28 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Lucky there are other ways of doing epidemiology such as what the Dane's have mastered.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=1975

It is not about being pro-vaccination. It is about improving health for all and vaccines have been a critical weapon in defeating disease across the world.

Originally Posted by Japonica
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...ica15/lurk.gif

No kidding...there's been hundreds hey? Someone better tell the very pro-vaccination folks at SBM that they're sadly off the mark...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=939

The usual argument against such studies are that they are unethical (ie. is is unethical to deny vaccines to a control group) and therefore cannot be be undertaken.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 9:13 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
Lucky there are other ways of doing epidemiology such as what the Dane's have mastered.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=1975

It is not about being pro-vaccination. It is about improving health for all and vaccines have been a critical weapon in defeating disease across the world.
Hey, thanks for that one study. I look forward to seeing your links for the 99 others...you said hundreds, right?

BTW, that study has been picked apart for a number of systematic errors...

Last edited by Japonica; May 21st 2011 at 9:16 pm.
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 9:25 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
Lucky there are other ways of doing epidemiology such as what the Dane's have mastered.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=1975

It is not about being pro-vaccination. It is about improving health for all and vaccines have been a critical weapon in defeating disease across the world.
That particular study was actually adjusted a few times with wildly varying results so may not really be a good one to look at. Before these particular figures were arrived at it actually showed vaccinated children were almost 50% more likely to develop autism, then they adjusted it to account for things like weight at birth and mother's education - to arrive at the figures above.

The whole study was later re-done to include children aged over 5 (the original had cut-off at around 4, and yet in Denmark at this time it was rare to get a diagnosis of autism before the age of 4) and the new results did show a rise in autism in the vaccinated children.

Pretty much a flawed study really which showed the need for more research.

Could you link to some of the other studies, not necessarily regarding autism, comparing vaxed to non-vaxed children?
 
Old May 21st 2011 | 9:29 pm
  #194  
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Originally Posted by IvanM
Lucky there are other ways of doing epidemiology such as what the Dane's have mastered.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=1975

It is not about being pro-vaccination. It is about improving health for all and vaccines have been a critical weapon in defeating disease across the world.
Apparently the Danes have also mastered fraud, but that shouldn't affect their credibility, right?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...73C8JJ20110413

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/n...#ixzz1JTcTqyL6

A scientist in Denmark has been indicted by a federal grand jury in Atlanta for allegedly stealing $1 million in grant money that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention had earmarked for autism research.

U.S. prosecutors on Wednesday said they are seeking to extradite Poul Thorsen, 49, accused of wire fraud and money laundering.

He used the stolen money to buy a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle and two cars, prosecutors said.

"Grant money for disease research is a precious commodity," said Sally Yates, U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Georgia, in a news release.

"When grant funds are stolen, we lose not only the money, but also the opportunity to better understand and cure debilitating diseases."

Thorsen, a visiting scientist at the Atlanta-based CDC in the 1990s, helped two government agencies in Denmark obtain $11 million in research grants.

He moved back to Denmark in 2002 to be principal investigator for the program. Prosecutors said he was also in charge of administering the research dollars, earmarked in part to study the relationship between autism and exposure to vaccines.

Thorsen submitted false invoices for research expenses and had Aarhus University, where he held a faculty position, transfer the funds to his personal account at the CDC Federal Credit Union in Atlanta, prosecutors said.
And like Sunshine said...

http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/us-...esearch-fraud/

Thorsen was an author of the now notorious US CDC funded New England Journal of Medicine Madsen study of 500,000 Danish children which was used worldwide to claim there was no relationship between MMR vaccine and autistic conditions. Thorsen was also involved in publishing studies claiming there was no link between the mercury additive thiomersal in vaccines, autistic conditions and developmental disorders in children.

Numerous irregularities were subsequently revealed in the Madsen study and rates of autistic conditions in fact rose in Denmark contrary to the claims of the authors of the Madsen study: A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism Kreesten Meldgaard Madsen, M.D., Anders Hviid, M.Sc., Mogens Vestergaard, M.D., Diana Schendel, Ph.D., Jan Wohlfahrt, M.Sc., Poul Thorsen, M.D., Jørn Olsen, M.D., and Mads Melbye, M.D. N Engl J Med 2002; 347:1477-1482 November 7, 2002.

According to US vaccine safety organisation Safeminds some of the research Thorsen engaged in substantial numbers of diagnosed autism cases disappeared annually from the data Thorsen and colleagues relied on. Thorsen engaged in email correspondence with the US Centers for Disease Control about how to produce results which were showed a more favourable safety profile for vaccines. SafeMinds is calling for an independent federal investigation of these studies for data manipulation and scientific misconduct.

From August to October of 2003, three articles on the autism-mercury controversy were published in close succession, all of which used data from a Danish registry for psychiatric research to assess the relationship between autism trends and the use of thimerosal. SafeMinds accessed the registry at the time and reported that a large percentage of diagnosed autism cases are lost from the Danish registry each year and that most of those lost cases were older children. Since the studies were based on finding fewer older thimerosal-exposed children than younger unexposed children, the validity of their conclusion exonerating thimerosal in autism was questionable and likely a result of missing records rather than true lower incidence rates among the exposed group.

In addition, internal emails obtained via FOIA document discussion between the Danish researchers and Thornsen which acknowledge that the studies did not include the latest data from 2001 where the incidence and prevalence of autism was declining which would be supportive of a vaccine connection.

The emails also include requests from Thornsen to CDC asking that the agency write letters to the journal Pediatrics encouraging them to publish the research after it had been rejected by other journals.

A top CDC official complied with the request sending a letter to the editor of the journal supporting the publication of the study which they called a “strong piece of evidence that thimerosal is not linked to autism.”

Further background information on these studies, the charges against Dr. Thorsen, and documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act that support SafeMinds’ concerns are available on their website, www.safeminds.org.

Last edited by Japonica; May 21st 2011 at 9:31 pm.
 
Old May 22nd 2011 | 1:46 pm
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Default Re: Rules for vaccinations in oz

Yes and one of the key scientisits on that study is now being charged with 13 counts of fraud and nine counts of money laundering including stealing $1million. Perfectly honourable chap then so his word must be trustworthy.

http://www.cphpost.dk/news/internati...ted-in-us.html



Originally Posted by IvanM
Lucky there are other ways of doing epidemiology such as what the Dane's have mastered.

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/View...ArticleId=1975

It is not about being pro-vaccination. It is about improving health for all and vaccines have been a critical weapon in defeating disease across the world.
 


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