Finally decided to leave Australia...
Apr 27th 2008, 2:03 am
#61
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
I am surprised at the comments regarding racism. Maybe it is where I live but I can't remember the last time I head a racist comment and if anyone around these parts made a racist comment they would be severely criticised by those who heard it. I do think there is more racism in Queensland for some reason and regional areas. Melbourne is very multi-cultural and has been for decades so we are used to people of all races living here. I don't even think twice about it. We embrace multi-culturalism here.
Also regarding education people keep saying that the education system is inferior to the U.K. Just because something is different it doesn't mean it is inferior. Why does Australia come above the U.K. in every education survey if it is so bad. Is every school in the U.K. excellent? I doubt it. Just like in Australia there are great, bad and everything in between. Choose well and you won't be disappointed.
Australia is not perfect and it has it's problem as does the U.K., Canada or the U.S. and every other country in the world. If you come with a negative attitude then you will find fault wherever you look.
Also regarding education people keep saying that the education system is inferior to the U.K. Just because something is different it doesn't mean it is inferior. Why does Australia come above the U.K. in every education survey if it is so bad. Is every school in the U.K. excellent? I doubt it. Just like in Australia there are great, bad and everything in between. Choose well and you won't be disappointed.
Australia is not perfect and it has it's problem as does the U.K., Canada or the U.S. and every other country in the world. If you come with a negative attitude then you will find fault wherever you look.
My point concerns the subtle racism of media. Trying to make it an issue. As I've said on here before, when the media talks about multiculturalism not working in Australia, I doubt that it's talking about the English in Joondalup.
Apr 27th 2008, 3:30 am
#62
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
I agree about the EPL.
The earlier post about AFL domination meaning that it can't be paranoid.....I reckon it is paranoid because of that very position - i.e. it wants to protect its position. Also, AFL drugs policy (3 chances (or is it 2 chances now?) and you're out?!! Talk about completely the wrong message to gibe out. And why does it allow this? Why is ALLOWED to have this as policy? Anyhow I really shouldn't get into AFL discussions - I'm on dodgy ground.
The earlier post about AFL domination meaning that it can't be paranoid.....I reckon it is paranoid because of that very position - i.e. it wants to protect its position. Also, AFL drugs policy (3 chances (or is it 2 chances now?) and you're out?!! Talk about completely the wrong message to gibe out. And why does it allow this? Why is ALLOWED to have this as policy? Anyhow I really shouldn't get into AFL discussions - I'm on dodgy ground.
Anyway thats all a side issue, I wish you all the best in the future NKSK, I reckon I would enjoy a stint in Singapore myself
Apr 27th 2008, 4:13 am
#65
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
Wishing you all the best with your job hunt and ultimate move home. Sometimes making the decision is the hardest bit and you have done that successfully.
Apr 27th 2008, 4:41 am
#66
Joined: Feb 2005
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
Sorry all - nipped out to Bunnings!
OK - where to start...?
I've always been ambivalent about Australia. It's certainly a great place but it never quite does it for me. I don't have the enthusiasm of many on here.
Increasingly I'm getting to the stage when I can't see the point in being here.
Well, I do know, the weather is fantastic - which admittedly leads to lots of other good things. It is truly great for young families.
But the downsides are significant and I think I've got to the point when I can no longer justify taking the negatives for the few positives.
Ultimately, the downsides for us are financial and lifestyle.
In terms of finance, I cannot now see any benefit in staying here. Salaries other than in the mining sector (and possibly the trades if you own your own business) are hopelessly poor. At least they are in education. There is little hope that education salaries will increase under this state government (indeed I think the status of teachers here is unbelievably low) and promotion opportunities are relatively rare due to the size of the population (senior management positions here are also poorly paid and I'm not sure they are worth the stress).
House prices are certainly lower than a year ago but are still overpriced in my view for what you get. Quality in general is poor and houses that are affordable for average salary earners are often in truly bland suburbs. When I arrived in Perth I could not understand what was meant by a "nice suburb" (with the exception of the obvious river suburbs). Nearly 3 years later and I still can't see the difference between Kingsley, Padbury, Craigie, Joondalup, Willeton, Duncraig, Carine - even City Beach etc etc - they are all as bland as grey paint. I sometimes sit in my front room looking at the dull houses out of the window and really question what I'm doing here. I do now understand why ""Sea glimpses" are such selling points. They dilute the blandness.
The dollar is strong so bringing cash over gives you a paper loss compared with when we did our calculations. Mortgage rates at 10% are truly unbelievable. Interest rates are unlikely to go down soon.
I'm also increasingly frustrated by vested interests in Australia. Real estate agents being the typical example. But pharmacists, doctors, trade organisations, Coles/Woolworths, trade union leaders, dentists, the AFL... I find it ironic that the so called fair-go psyche of Australia is constantly subjugated by the vested interests of these groups. Aussies don’t seem to realise this. Or choose to ignore the irony.
I’m fed up of local politicians being unable to string a coherent sentence together. Yesterday I heard the mayor of Perth stating categorically that ”isn’t it amazing that the Australians with a population of 20 million have managed to get their currency to near parity with the US dollar – a country with 180 million?.”. Can you believe that somebody in such an influential position could say this? Is it any wonder that you can’t buy a loaf of bread in Perth on Sunday or after 5pm mid-week? WA has an amazing opportunity to be a world leader in so many areas – health, education, infrastructure – and yet with the group of baboons running the place it remains a completely mismanaged administration.
I’m tired of the parochialism. Sick of hearing “Australia is God” comments. Fed up of the undercurrent of anti-Islamic comment here (no, I'm not muslim, neither is my wife)
So where to go? Anywhere really. I know that many of the issues I’ve raised above are present in many other countries but I’m now struggling to find any compelling reason to stay in Australia to suffer the issues. I’ve just returned from Singapore which gave me a yearning again for SE Asia (Vash, let me stop you, I know that Singapore is an authoritarian state where you can’t fart without permission etc etc etc). At least abroad I’d get my accommodation paid for and I’d be financially much better off. You can ignore a lot of issues if you’re paid enough (which is why some of the miners stay in WA).
I’m not in a desperate rush to leave. But the last week has been a kind of epiphany for me. Life is too short to spend it sitting in a non-descript suburb of Perth looking at the blue sky.
OK - where to start...?
I've always been ambivalent about Australia. It's certainly a great place but it never quite does it for me. I don't have the enthusiasm of many on here.
Increasingly I'm getting to the stage when I can't see the point in being here.
Well, I do know, the weather is fantastic - which admittedly leads to lots of other good things. It is truly great for young families.
But the downsides are significant and I think I've got to the point when I can no longer justify taking the negatives for the few positives.
Ultimately, the downsides for us are financial and lifestyle.
In terms of finance, I cannot now see any benefit in staying here. Salaries other than in the mining sector (and possibly the trades if you own your own business) are hopelessly poor. At least they are in education. There is little hope that education salaries will increase under this state government (indeed I think the status of teachers here is unbelievably low) and promotion opportunities are relatively rare due to the size of the population (senior management positions here are also poorly paid and I'm not sure they are worth the stress).
House prices are certainly lower than a year ago but are still overpriced in my view for what you get. Quality in general is poor and houses that are affordable for average salary earners are often in truly bland suburbs. When I arrived in Perth I could not understand what was meant by a "nice suburb" (with the exception of the obvious river suburbs). Nearly 3 years later and I still can't see the difference between Kingsley, Padbury, Craigie, Joondalup, Willeton, Duncraig, Carine - even City Beach etc etc - they are all as bland as grey paint. I sometimes sit in my front room looking at the dull houses out of the window and really question what I'm doing here. I do now understand why ""Sea glimpses" are such selling points. They dilute the blandness.
The dollar is strong so bringing cash over gives you a paper loss compared with when we did our calculations. Mortgage rates at 10% are truly unbelievable. Interest rates are unlikely to go down soon.
I'm also increasingly frustrated by vested interests in Australia. Real estate agents being the typical example. But pharmacists, doctors, trade organisations, Coles/Woolworths, trade union leaders, dentists, the AFL... I find it ironic that the so called fair-go psyche of Australia is constantly subjugated by the vested interests of these groups. Aussies don’t seem to realise this. Or choose to ignore the irony.
I’m fed up of local politicians being unable to string a coherent sentence together. Yesterday I heard the mayor of Perth stating categorically that ”isn’t it amazing that the Australians with a population of 20 million have managed to get their currency to near parity with the US dollar – a country with 180 million?.”. Can you believe that somebody in such an influential position could say this? Is it any wonder that you can’t buy a loaf of bread in Perth on Sunday or after 5pm mid-week? WA has an amazing opportunity to be a world leader in so many areas – health, education, infrastructure – and yet with the group of baboons running the place it remains a completely mismanaged administration.
I’m tired of the parochialism. Sick of hearing “Australia is God” comments. Fed up of the undercurrent of anti-Islamic comment here (no, I'm not muslim, neither is my wife)
So where to go? Anywhere really. I know that many of the issues I’ve raised above are present in many other countries but I’m now struggling to find any compelling reason to stay in Australia to suffer the issues. I’ve just returned from Singapore which gave me a yearning again for SE Asia (Vash, let me stop you, I know that Singapore is an authoritarian state where you can’t fart without permission etc etc etc). At least abroad I’d get my accommodation paid for and I’d be financially much better off. You can ignore a lot of issues if you’re paid enough (which is why some of the miners stay in WA).
I’m not in a desperate rush to leave. But the last week has been a kind of epiphany for me. Life is too short to spend it sitting in a non-descript suburb of Perth looking at the blue sky.
I wonder if it is a realisation of the common problems of the Western, English speaking world. Australia, UK, NZ, and USA are in the grip of an affluenza epidemic that is (seemingly) increasing standard of living while ruining quality of life. The rich become anxious that they still don't have enough, and want more and more. The poor don't have some pretty basic needs met, but still have FoxTel. Everyone confuses needs with wants, thinking they need a new plasma TV, newer car, bigger house, new sofa. Inflation creeps up, interest rates creep up. The baby boomers rent their multiple investment properties to Gen X and Y's who cannot even afford a basic home. Individualism rules. Community is destroyed. Families move apart or break up. Kids aspire to be 'famous'. Depression spirals, addictions sky-rocket. Many of us move to try to escape a culture with which we cannot identify, only to find that the other brands on the shelf have the same ingredients.
Despite all their affluence, people feel no better. They feel even worse. USA has the highest levels of mental distress in the developed world, and Australia and the UK are level pegging at 2nd place. As compared to the UK, I simply find that the sun and blue sky gets me out and about more, and cheers me up. That simple. Others also seems to be more cheery and have more fun, probably purely as a weather side-effect, so things seem a bit better all round. But it just masks an underlying disappointment and distress: is this it?! Other than the weather, and its spin offs, there really is not that much difference between the Western English speaking countries. I wish you good luck, and maybe you'll find it other parts of the world?
Apr 27th 2008, 7:17 am
#67
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
All very valid reasons NKSK 2. I've noticed a lot of posts on here are far more critical - or perhaps honest - about Australia than they were a few years ago or so. If that's true, I wonder what has happened in the meantime?
I wonder if it is a realisation of the common problems of the Western, English speaking world. Australia, UK, NZ, and USA are in the grip of an affluenza epidemic that is (seemingly) increasing standard of living while ruining quality of life. The rich become anxious that they still don't have enough, and want more and more. The poor don't have some pretty basic needs met, but still have FoxTel. Everyone confuses needs with wants, thinking they need a new plasma TV, newer car, bigger house, new sofa. Inflation creeps up, interest rates creep up. The baby boomers rent their multiple investment properties to Gen X and Y's who cannot even afford a basic home. Individualism rules. Community is destroyed. Families move apart or break up. Kids aspire to be 'famous'. Depression spirals, addictions sky-rocket. Many of us move to try to escape a culture with which we cannot identify, only to find that the other brands on the shelf have the same ingredients.
Despite all their affluence, people feel no better. They feel even worse. USA has the highest levels of mental distress in the developed world, and Australia and the UK are level pegging at 2nd place. As compared to the UK, I simply find that the sun and blue sky gets me out and about more, and cheers me up. That simple. Others also seems to be more cheery and have more fun, probably purely as a weather side-effect, so things seem a bit better all round. But it just masks an underlying disappointment and distress: is this it?! Other than the weather, and its spin offs, there really is not that much difference between the Western English speaking countries. I wish you good luck, and maybe you'll find it other parts of the world?
I wonder if it is a realisation of the common problems of the Western, English speaking world. Australia, UK, NZ, and USA are in the grip of an affluenza epidemic that is (seemingly) increasing standard of living while ruining quality of life. The rich become anxious that they still don't have enough, and want more and more. The poor don't have some pretty basic needs met, but still have FoxTel. Everyone confuses needs with wants, thinking they need a new plasma TV, newer car, bigger house, new sofa. Inflation creeps up, interest rates creep up. The baby boomers rent their multiple investment properties to Gen X and Y's who cannot even afford a basic home. Individualism rules. Community is destroyed. Families move apart or break up. Kids aspire to be 'famous'. Depression spirals, addictions sky-rocket. Many of us move to try to escape a culture with which we cannot identify, only to find that the other brands on the shelf have the same ingredients.
Despite all their affluence, people feel no better. They feel even worse. USA has the highest levels of mental distress in the developed world, and Australia and the UK are level pegging at 2nd place. As compared to the UK, I simply find that the sun and blue sky gets me out and about more, and cheers me up. That simple. Others also seems to be more cheery and have more fun, probably purely as a weather side-effect, so things seem a bit better all round. But it just masks an underlying disappointment and distress: is this it?! Other than the weather, and its spin offs, there really is not that much difference between the Western English speaking countries. I wish you good luck, and maybe you'll find it other parts of the world?
Thanks. Yes been reading a lot about "affluenza" recently.
Essentially we all move to Australia for slightly different reasons. For us, the prime motivator was for the kids to have a second option for university and for their careers. That was it. Any other positive spin-offs have been just that.
But I do believe that many Brits in Australia moved primarily to get 2 steps up the affluence ladder. Exchange rate was favourable, houses were good value. Toys - large cars and boats - were relatively cheap and accessible.
Much of that has now gone. And indeed we are left with......the weather.
Although we were never motivated by the ladder climbing, if I could have afforded a decent house and the kids were guaranteed of getting what I believe to be a good education I would have stayed. Simple cost-benefit analysis would have led us to the conclusion that the pain was less than the gain.
Now I think that the balance has shifted - the pain is definitely more than the gain. Again I don't think that the UK is for us - unless I got a great job with a good package and the kids' education thrown in. But the thought of living somewhere in Asia with tax-free (or low tax) salary, kids education heavily subsidised or free, a maid, cheap holidays and easy access to the idylls of Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia well....what would you do...?!
Until this year the net difference between our rental (what we receive) in the UK and what we pay out in Australia was negligible. Now it runs into thousands of pounds per year as a net loss. House prices are still high. Interest rates are high. (To purchase a house at just above the median price (e.g. $540K) with a $220K deposit and a 22 year term I'd be looking at $2000 per month at least - and the suburb would still be soulless) I don't think it's a rosy future.....
And ultimately we'd be financially (and emotionally due to the long travel times from family in Europe) suffering to give the kids a chance to swim in an outdoor pool and receive a more rounded primary education!
Last edited by NKSK version 2; Apr 27th 2008 at 7:19 am. Reason: typo
Apr 27th 2008, 7:59 am
#68
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
Great honest post and I agree with you on so many points.
It's particularly refreshing that the usual crowd haven't jumped down your throat because Perth/Australia isn't for you.
Best of luck with your move.
It's particularly refreshing that the usual crowd haven't jumped down your throat because Perth/Australia isn't for you.
Best of luck with your move.
Apr 27th 2008, 8:32 am
#69
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
Also, to be honest the thread wasn't in praise of the UK compared with Australia. I'm just as ambivalent about the UK as here. I'd need a great salary package to be enticed back to England.
But equally I'd need a great salary package to be enticed into staying here (and there doesn't seem to be one forthcoming)
Apr 27th 2008, 8:59 am
#70
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
What can happen I think is that people tend to have problems with posters who basically trash all and sundry and furthermore, don't come over too bright in the process either, which leaves them open for 'criticism' well intentioned or nasty. (!)
Apr 27th 2008, 9:13 am
#71
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
You know it seems that people today need more and more money to make them happy. How sad is that! People worry about being able to afford a home for their family, educating the children etc. How have the human race got things so wrong? I think that we have to throw everything out and start again. I know that is not an option but it is a nice thought!
Apr 27th 2008, 9:21 am
#72
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
You know it seems that people today need more and more money to make them happy. How sad is that! People worry about being able to afford a home for their family, educating the children etc. How have the human race got things so wrong? I think that we have to throw everything out and start again. I know that is not an option but it is a nice thought!
Apr 27th 2008, 9:56 am
#73
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
an interesting and well balanced post
good luck with where ever you end up
the financial side i can most definitely relate too
at first everthing looks cheap as your converting costs into sterling and saying yeah petrol 55p litre bloody cheap thats untill you start earning dollars at the same rate as you did pounds and then the penny drops ( pardon the pun )
this weekend a group of us went away, seven families plus kids of which all were immigrants to australia, these people had been here ranging from 10 yrs to just under 6 months, the newest couple having just bought a property were asking what our respective living costs were, during this discussion we also compared our previous financial positions in our old countries
with one exception we were all worse off,
the one exception saying that they were on a par with previous or slighter better off
now i`m not suggesting that this ratio is the average but it makes you seriously think "things aint soo cheap as they first looked and have i made the right decision in coming here ??
i suppose that time will answer that one for me
regards steve
good luck with where ever you end up
the financial side i can most definitely relate too
at first everthing looks cheap as your converting costs into sterling and saying yeah petrol 55p litre bloody cheap thats untill you start earning dollars at the same rate as you did pounds and then the penny drops ( pardon the pun )
this weekend a group of us went away, seven families plus kids of which all were immigrants to australia, these people had been here ranging from 10 yrs to just under 6 months, the newest couple having just bought a property were asking what our respective living costs were, during this discussion we also compared our previous financial positions in our old countries
with one exception we were all worse off,
the one exception saying that they were on a par with previous or slighter better off
now i`m not suggesting that this ratio is the average but it makes you seriously think "things aint soo cheap as they first looked and have i made the right decision in coming here ??
i suppose that time will answer that one for me
regards steve
Apr 27th 2008, 10:05 am
#74
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
But I do believe that many Brits in Australia moved primarily to get 2 steps up the affluence ladder. Exchange rate was favourable, houses were good value. Toys - large cars and boats - were relatively cheap and accessible.
Much of that has now gone. And indeed we are left with......the weather.
Much of that has now gone. And indeed we are left with......the weather.
Our kids had done their education in the UK (thank god!) and altho as I type both have left school here without a qualification to their name, I know they'll be right! ...
We owned (mortgage) a lovely house in Herts, yet again as I type, I'm not sure we'll get back on the ladder, but we'll have a bloody good try!
Best of luck to you!
Apr 27th 2008, 10:12 am
#75
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Re: Finally decided to leave Australia...
were asking what our respective living costs were, during this discussion we also compared our previous financial positions in our old countries
with one exception we were all worse off,
the one exception saying that they were on a par with previous or slighter better off
now i`m not suggesting that this ratio is the average but it makes you seriously think "things aint so cheap as they first looked and have i made the right decision in coming here ??
i suppose that time will answer that one for me
I have been here coming up for 3 years and have really noticed how dear things have got in the last year. A friend's parents visit them from Durham every year and they even commented on the cost of living compared to last year.
I got a job within 3 weeks of getting here and took a big drop in salary. It has taken over 2 years and a change of firms to earn just a bit more than I did in London.
I know some one will come on and say otherwise, but this is my experience.
John
with one exception we were all worse off,
the one exception saying that they were on a par with previous or slighter better off
now i`m not suggesting that this ratio is the average but it makes you seriously think "things aint so cheap as they first looked and have i made the right decision in coming here ??
i suppose that time will answer that one for me
I have been here coming up for 3 years and have really noticed how dear things have got in the last year. A friend's parents visit them from Durham every year and they even commented on the cost of living compared to last year.
I got a job within 3 weeks of getting here and took a big drop in salary. It has taken over 2 years and a change of firms to earn just a bit more than I did in London.
I know some one will come on and say otherwise, but this is my experience.
John