Ray

Just to get away from stupid Dingos and wannabees ... makes it worthwhile ...

christmasoompa

Yes but then I can't see any appeal in living in Australia whatsoever so no amount of salary or leave would compensate for that for me (and no, I don't live in the US either).

Horses for courses I guess......................those that do live in the US obviously feel that the lack of holiday and other benefits (if applicable - obviously some do get far more than the normal 2 weeks holiday for example) are far outweighed by their lifestyle and/or location. What suits one person may not suit another.

Kaffy Mintcake

But to play devil's advocate - a well rested employee can be a more productive employee. And screw productivity for a minute, what about quality of life? Related health conditions from stress, etc? Most Americans don't work a 40 hour work week (let alone the 36 hour week mentioned earlier). Someone quoted earlier that few employees take the little time they have. Sure, perhaps you get more hours from the employee with less leave, but at what cost? Employees can burn out, little time off can make it very difficult to take vacations or to be with family. Afterall, your employer can replace you in 2 weeks, while your family never can.

In my case, for instance, I'm fortunate that I have 4 weeks of vacation a year (one is unpaid). But this is a big country - and we have family in Arizona, Florida, Utah, and California ... while we live in Ohio. Not easy to pop over for dinner - so a good 2 weeks a year is probably spent with either us visiting them or them visiting us. We also love to travel - so to use the remaining 2 weeks to go overseas, etc. means we literally can't take another day off. We're going through that right now. I suppose it could be argued that we don't have to go overseas ... but I'm not willing to give that up.

If you don't think employees are entitled to more time off, then perhaps the unpaid option to buy that I referenced earlier would be a good compromise.

To be honest though - I was shocked that someone thought our way might be better when it came to holiday leave! I sure didn't. After some time off I am far more productive and motivated at work ... too much time with too little time off and it's easy for burn-out to set in ... and to just go through the motions.

Tootsie Frickensprinkles

This became a conspicuous issue in the last large organisation I worked for. Annual leave was high for the US, 15 to start rising to 20, with a 4 week sabbatical earned by senior members every 5 years tenure. However, pressure not to take that leave was extremely high and it was unheard of for the US consultants to not take their mobles and laptops on vacation and log in daily. Something not done or expected anywhere else in the global organisation.

Europe consistently produced the highest worldwide earners, in good years billablity targets were over achieved, and they were closer to being met in bad years. The US consultants who spent time in the UK were really quite shocked at the huge disparity in quality of family life.

Now that was true and measurable for consultants, I'm not sure whether the same could be said for research or non-revenue lines but the severe lack of recouperation time was very, very evident from a productivity perspective. Their comparative salary levels were really not *that* different either. In fact, when one considers the extra hours put in by the stateside consultants you could reasonably argue some were earning less on an hourly basis.

Kaffy Mintcake

I'm fortunate in that there isn't pressure not to take time off at my company. What I've noticed, though, is that some employees (particularly older ones) sometimes wear long hours like a badge of honor. The woman in the cube next to me arrives at 7:30am every day and rarely leaves before 6pm. She also often works in the evenings and weekends. I don't really understand why ... is she slower at her work? Does she feel like it's better to put in more hours? Then she will complain that she can't take time off. We're in the same role so I think this is self-imposed.

Well sometimes you just have to do it! As someone who was laid off work in my 20's - I've learned the lesson of looking out for #1 the hard way.

Bob

That's the thing, a lot of people move around to different jobs every few years. Rare place where you see the whole workforce averaging more than 5 years, so the length of stay increasing holiday time becomes a moot issue for many.

On thing that worried me, had a mate up in Maine who just had a baby, the missus was back at work in 2 weeks and him back at work in a week because they couldn't afford not to have the money coming in. He's the district school IT bloke and she manages a pretty decent store....oh and she had a c-section.

Bob

I don't know, the rest of the world hasn't collapsed yet because they allow people holiday and other leave. It's cheaper in the long run because people aren't as stressed, less likely to go postal, and work productivity is actually much higher, over here your just putting the hours in to be seen to be busy, when really, everyone is dobbing off far more, like spending time on BE

And the me, me, me thing, well it's just that, I can afford good healthcare so I don't care about those who can't, so why change the system, I don't intend to have kids so why should I care about it being crap for those who do. I'm not aiming this at you directly, but that is quite the consensus of feeling over here. If it's good enough for me, why strive to make it better for all, when really people should be thinking, why not make it better for all and myself included. Happy, healthy, smart people are more productive and better for the economy in the long run after all.

Xebedee

When the OH had our beasts, we were so strapped here we squeaked.
But she stayed off as long as she was allowed to - used all vac up and everything.

It worked out to be about 3 months or so.

Xebedee

Oh Budda - you sound like the wife.

I look at work this way (unfortunately):

I am a worker - end of. Don't give a hoot about the impact of my cost on my employer - that's their problem.
In the same way that my bills are my own concern.

An employer doesn't give job security - its level is defined by abilities and training. Anything else is an illusion. That particular mentality is a direct result of having worked here in the US tho. Which bites the employer as he gets no loyalty.
In the end, its his problem, not mine.

I think it all comes down to how the average American employer perceives their employees. That value is shown by what else they get other than a paycheck.

Believe me, I'd love to commit more (remnants of an ethic) - but it'd be foolish.

slktck

I can see why you might wonder but the reality of living in the UK is that if you want to live anywhere nice, then even on a well above average salary (I beleive the average salary is something like 24,000 pounds or so the student loans people tell me) you will never be able to afford a decent house. For young people who went to university and missed out on buying property until recently it's a really bad situation, so you can either resign yourself to having a huge mortgage, living in a tiny house in a bad area, or look elsewhere.
Add to this the high cost of other things, petrol, food , leisure activities, the poor healthcare and public facilities and the US starts to look quite tempting.
However I wouldn't see myself moving to the US permanently but for a few years, why not?

Bob

On the flip side, saying those very same things about the US, then the US doesn't seem that appealing either.

So it's not a good reason to want to move abroad if your perception is to escape something going to the dogs. If your doing it for the experience, because you've got the chance, fancy seeing another way of life etc, it's well worth doing, but not if your seeing it as an escape, because you'll be sorely disappointed.

elfman

hang around long enough on this board (or go through a load of old threads) and you are going to be surprised by how many people who have experienced/detailed knowledge of both US and UK healthcare actually prefer it in the UK.

elfman

just out of interest Tracy, what do you do for a living and how much vacation do you get?

Tracym

Would everyone be more productive - and more get produced with more time off? I don't know, but I find it kinda hard to think it would equal out, but I don't know for sure of course.

Too many hours per week - now there I would agree with you. I never did that (except on rare occasion) and I would not do it. That I think wrecks a person much more than not having lots of weeks off per year - it's then a grind that wears you down.

But are there really fewer stress-related illnesses in the UK or Europe than the US? I don't know there either, but it seems I've heard a lot about people being out for stress over there too, I'd be interested if there were any statistics that show if there are any differences.

As far as being able to take unpaid time off - sure, that can be an option. But remember, the business doesn't lose just the person's salary - they also lose the profit (in theory anyway). And depending upon the person's job, they could lose much more (in the example of the vet, the income the vet generates pays not only for his/her salary, but for 2 vet techs, 1/2-1 of a receptionist, equipment, mortgage/rent on building). So there is still an economic impact to employees not being there.

I didn't necessarily say I thought it was better btw.... just that if there were a sudden change, I wonder about the economic impact.

The "it works over there" argument doesn't really work for me honestly. It is a different culture, that has evolved in a different way. Sure, it works. But that doesn't mean it is the best way, or that it would necessarily work here. It might... or it might not. The US does not have a goal of trying to become European.

Whether productivity is higher, and the economy better - ok maybe, wonder if there are any studies that prove that?

As far as the healthcare, benefits for having kids, etc.... you can easily say what people "should" be thinking. I'm afraid I cannot agree - people are free to think all sorts of things. And the US is kinda founded on that, and the majority is intended to rule. How far towards socialism as opposed to capitalism is up to the people - not for any one of us to say what people SHOULD think.

Have to agree with you on all of that. Some small employer, there might be some mutual loyalty. Corporations - you give them a service, they give you a paycheck. Period.

IT for over 20 years. Mostly a contractor, with NO paid vacation or any other benefits. For the few years I was an employee, 2 weeks.

What do you do, and how much vacation do you get then?

simongb

I work in education (in the US) and I get A LOT of free time. I don't make the big bucks (I have friends who make TRIPLE what I make), but I consider the fact that I only work about 9 months a year to more than make up for it. Plus, I am usually done by 3.30pm and home. I couldn't see me working in any other field. This, to me, is the best job in the US. Good benefits, great vacation, good working conditions.