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Race issues
I was just reading this cheery new year story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...515353,00.html Interesting stuff. Now, not being a minority I can't really say, but is there a big difference between the US and UK on race still? I think there is a perception that it is a bigger problem here, but is it true? |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Chorlton
I was just reading this cheery new year story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...515353,00.html Interesting stuff. Now, not being a minority I can't really say, but is there a big difference between the US and UK on race still? I think there is a perception that it is a bigger problem here, but is it true? My experience living in the Southeast US is that black citizens in the US are more likely to be living in lower-SES areas than white citizens. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Chorlton
I was just reading this cheery new year story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...515353,00.html Interesting stuff. Now, not being a minority I can't really say, but is there a big difference between the US and UK on race still? I think there is a perception that it is a bigger problem here, but is it true? I think in the UK people who are racist are more openly so; everyone else is a bit more tolerant. I think you also see a few more minorities in higher positions in companies - it seems to be easier in the UK to make it on your own merits rather than having to go above and beyond to prove that you are worthy if you are a minority. My wife and I get plenty of "looks" here being a mixed race couple (not just from white people), but when we're in the UK together it hardly ever seems to happen; it seems we might be more accepted there. Just my thoughts - the racism is there in the US but now it seems to only impact us in relatively minor ways; it impacts her more in her job than I can imagine (she has to work hard to keep her job; plenty of her friends in the same position haven't lasted long because they are unable to keep up with the considerable amount of pressure that is put on them) |
Re: Race issues
We have been fostering two black children over the holidays, they where 3 and 4. It promted a discussion between my wife and I about how we would handle getting a black baby. Would we bring it up as we are, or should we bring the child up to be "ethnic" to make him/her more socially acceptable when he/she grows up, otherwise s/he would just be a white person in black skin.
I said to Ellen, "do you know the worst part of this conversation?" and she said " that we actually have to have it!, welcome to America!" Its sad but true, if we where fostering and adopting in the UK we would have to even consider race, I wish it where the same here, but if we brought up an african american child in NC without a blaccent they would suffer in the long run. |
Re: Race issues
[QUOTE=Patrick]We have been fostering two black children over the holidays, they where 3 and 4. It promted a discussion between my wife and I about how we would handle getting a black baby.
My post is slightly off track here and apologise but I think that's so neat of you to foster esp a different race but then race is not an issue with me, never has been..hope the little children are OK now. I'd be so worried and keep checking up on them if I'd fostered any...I'd find it sooo very hard to give them back or send them off wherever....good for you...you and yours deserve a huge pat on the back....maybe a slap being the sex god you claim to be :D |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Chorlton
I was just reading this cheery new year story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...515353,00.html Interesting stuff. Now, not being a minority I can't really say, but is there a big difference between the US and UK on race still? I think there is a perception that it is a bigger problem here, but is it true? I don't think it's posible to compare the US and UK on this topic, and come up with any meaningful answer. The comparative sizes of the 2 nations are so different. You might compare the UK with a particular US state, perhaps, or an area of the USA. From what I've gathered so far, states vary greatly in attitude, so to bundle them all together and compare them with the UK, which, in size and communal feelings is comparable to only one large state, isn't really fair. I'd guess that some of the southern states are way behind the UK, whereas in New York, California, and many of the "blue" states we'd find attitudes to race comparable to those in the UK. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Dimsie
I don't think it's posible to compare the US and UK on this topic, and come up with any meaningful answer.
The comparative sizes of the 2 nations are so different. You might compare the UK with a particular US state, perhaps, or an area of the USA. From what I've gathered so far, states vary greatly in attitude, so to bundle them all together and compare them with the UK, which, in size and communal feelings is comparable to only one large state, isn't really fair. I'd guess that some of the southern states are way behind the UK, whereas in New York, California, and many of the "blue" states we'd find attitudes to race comparable to those in the UK. Hi and yes I totally agree with you, size certainly has a lot to do with it... if you know waht I mean :o |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by dunroving
My personal observation is that race is a much bigger, and more overt (in the media) issue in the US. In fact, as one civil rights speaker once said (if I remember exactly who, I'll post it), "Everything is about race".
My experience living in the Southeast US is that black citizens in the US are more likely to be living in lower-SES areas than white citizens. Also, living in the SE USA, I find that the even the poorer areas are (self) segregated. i.e. the poor Black Americans live in one part of town, the Whites in another and the Latinos in a third area. However, there are places where the Black Americans and Latinos live side by side and this is where I'll hear and read about racial gang alteractions. The City of Durham is addressing the racial tension between young adults/teenagers in their Boys and Girls clubs, encouraging at least Black Americans and Latinos to mix in a neutral, social setting. NC Penguin |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Dimsie
I don't think it's posible to compare the US and UK on this topic, and come up with any meaningful answer.
The comparative sizes of the 2 nations are so different. You might compare the UK with a particular US state, perhaps, or an area of the USA. From what I've gathered so far, states vary greatly in attitude, so to bundle them all together and compare them with the UK, which, in size and communal feelings is comparable to only one large state, isn't really fair. I'd guess that some of the southern states are way behind the UK, whereas in New York, California, and many of the "blue" states we'd find attitudes to race comparable to those in the UK. I don't know - states are just like big counties in a lot of ways. Britain has its bad areas just the same as the US, like the areas where the BNP have seats. I would be interested to see if we can get input on different states, though, and see if the stereotypes are still true. One of my hispanic colleagues told me about this place in my state: http://www.rtis.com/reg/bcs/pol/touc...l99/vidor.html |
Re: Race issues
It seems to me most races are happy to separate themselves from other races, and emphasise the differences between cultures.
This can only be a bad thing. Only in the US have I seen 'Black Entertainment Television' and heard people referring to 'Black' films. Can people just not live with a single common culture? It would be difficult with all this immigration, but surely in the long run its better. Someone actually sniggered at me once when I said I liked Popeye's fried chicken -apparently that's only a 'Black' fast food chain :confused::rolleyes: |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by anotherlimey
It seems to me most races are happy to separate themselves from other races, and emphasise the differences between cultures.
This can only be a bad thing. Only in the US have I seen 'Black Entertainment Television' and heard people referring to 'Black' films. Can people just not live with a single common culture? It would be difficult with all this immigration, but surely in the long run its better. I totally agree. Even in the UK, we had the MOBO awards. I dont think that they help matters much. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by anotherlimey
It seems to me most races are happy to separate themselves from other races, and emphasise the differences between cultures.
This can only be a bad thing. Only in the US have I seen 'Black Entertainment Television' and heard people referring to 'Black' films. Can people just not live with a single common culture? It would be difficult with all this immigration, but surely in the long run its better. Someone actually sniggered at me once when I said I liked Popeye's fried chicken -apparently that's only a 'Black' fast food chain :confused::rolleyes: In some ways it's unfortunate that ethnocentric entertainment exists but the examples given are both targeting a segment of the population that has historically been marginalized in entertainment (think of the roles since Hollywood's existence that Blacks have acted in) and also brings to mainstream America the existance of "racism" in the media. The Jeffersons and Good Times (70s?) broke into the American family's TV "world" by presenting Black Americans as regular people instead of relagating Black characters to stereotypical roles as felons, troublemakers or janitors and the like... NC Penguin |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by NC Penguin
The examples you've given have arisen because entertainment is run by and catered for the white American. Therefore, BET fills a void that has been neglected by the mainstream whiterun media giants. The same is true for "Black" films that have a mostly Black American cast and a storyline that would appeal more to Blacks.
In some ways it's unfortunate that ethnocentric entertainment exists but the examples given are both targeting a segment of the population that has historically been marginalized in entertainment (think of the roles since Hollywood's existence that Blacks have acted in) and also brings to mainstream America the existance of "racism" in the media. The Jeffersons and Good Times (70s?) broke into the American family's TV "world" by presenting Black Americans as regular people instead of relagating Black characters to stereotypical roles as felons, troublemakers or janitors and the like... NC Penguin Surely that's better in the long run? Or is that an idealist utopia? |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Chorlton
I don't know - states are just like big counties in a lot of ways. Britain has its bad areas just the same as the US, like the areas where the BNP have seats.
I would be interested to see if we can get input on different states, though, and see if the stereotypes are still true. One of my hispanic colleagues told me about this place in my state: http://www.rtis.com/reg/bcs/pol/touc...l99/vidor.html In most parts of Oklahoma it's similar to how NC Penguin describes the situation in the SE. The back community tend to live in a particular area of town - often a fairly poor and run-down area. There's one small town (we'd call it a village) where almost the whole population is black (Tatums, OK) In the town where I live (pop. around 22,000) they hold a number of all-black events e.g. a Black beauty pageant, and the schools vote for a separate Black Homecoming Queen. I'd consider this a bit backward, but they seem to think it's a good thing! I haven't seen or heard of any racial disturbances here. There's a Native American population too, and they appear to have blended in very well. Considering that they WERE here first, they've had a rough deal and have had to fight hard for the reparations they've achieved. I understand that there are government schemes to assist them financially in various ways. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Dimsie
In most parts of Oklahoma it's similar to how NC Penguin describes
the situation in the SE. The back community tend to live in a particular area of town - often a fairly poor and run-down area. There's one small town (we'd call it a village) where almost the whole population is black (Tatums, OK) In the town where I live (pop. around 22,000) they hold a number of all-black events e.g. a Black beauty pageant, and the schools vote for a separate Black Homecoming Queen. I'd consider this a bit backward, but they seem to think it's a good thing! I haven't seen or heard of any racial disturbances here. There's a Native American population too, and they appear to have blended in very well. Considering that they WERE here first, they've had a rough deal and have had to fight hard for the reparations they've achieved. I understand that there are government schemes to assist them financially in various ways. Since the white debutante didn't allow Black Americans to partricipate, I'm not surprised that Black Americans formed their own debutante groups. NC Penguin |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Patrick
I said to Ellen, "do you know the worst part of this conversation?" !"
|
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Dimsie
I don't think it's posible to compare the US and UK on this topic, and come up with any meaningful answer.
The comparative sizes of the 2 nations are so different. You might compare the UK with a particular US state, perhaps, or an area of the USA. From what I've gathered so far, states vary greatly in attitude, so to bundle them all together and compare them with the UK, which, in size and communal feelings is comparable to only one large state, isn't really fair. I'd guess that some of the southern states are way behind the UK, whereas in New York, California, and many of the "blue" states we'd find attitudes to race comparable to those in the UK. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by NC Penguin
Also, living in the SE USA, I find that the even the poorer areas are (self) segregated. i.e. the poor Black Americans live in one part of town, the Whites in another and the Latinos in a third area. However, there are places where the Black Americans and Latinos live side by side and this is where I'll hear and read about racial gang alteractions.
http://www.acorn.org/fileadmin/Commu...equal_2004.pdf The communities are made that way by the lending industry. There is institutional racism here. An interesting term to Google that I had not met before coming to the US is redlining. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by NC Penguin
Dimsie's reminded me of something I discovered in 2003. White NC has a history of debutante balls which, historically have been white only. Therefore, I discovered that Black Americans have their own version of debutante balls, which they call cotillions (sp?).
Since the white debutante didn't allow Black Americans to partricipate, I'm not surprised that Black Americans formed their own debutante groups. NC Penguin There is also the way the government handles race. I couldn't help laughing (better than getting cross sometimes) at how stupid a jury notice was that told you to fill in your race but it wasn't going to be used to influence jury selection! So why do you HAVE to fill it in? I know they say it is so a jury of your peers is chosen but that shows that your race is used! Also, many states insisted for a long time that blood type/color was listed on birth certificates. Just one drop of black blood and you were listed as black, even if you passed as white. Even when segregation stopped, having such a point listed on your birth certificate seperates citizens every step of their life. |
Re: Race issues
Books are written about this subject, I'll be brief on my personal views:
Overt racism is probably hard to find, passive racism probably very easy to find. I think class is a much bigger issue than race in this country. When people talk about racial disparities, they're generally referring to issues that have economics at their heart, not race. I think racism is a much bigger issue for certain minorities than others (Asians vs. black, for example). My (Korean) wife is mostly subject to only positive stereotypes (except that whole "submissive Asian female" bullshit). These are equally irritating but easier to deal with obviously. Racism for or against the fast growing Hispanic minority is an extremely complicated issue, I'll dodge it for now. Multiculturalism and affirmative action have done more to drive wedges between races in this country than the Klan, IMO. Read some Dinesh D'Souza or Thomas Sowell sometime to get more on this viewpoint. The US is hugely diverse and has much larger minority populations than any country I can think of. Trying to compare it to other countries is simply not possible. Race is probably less of an issue in the UK because the minority population is much smaller. I think far too many politicians, celebrities, media figures, universities etc "play the race card" far too often. It's a good way to get votes, a good way to play up your PC credentials and a good way to seem politically aware on an issue that people will find it very hard to argue with. Lastly, if I want to get a reliably misinformed, stereotyped and overly simplified view of the US, or maybe just some good ol' US-bashing, I'll read the Guardian. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Hiro11
Lastly, if I want to get a reliably misinformed, stereotyped and overly simplified view of the US, or maybe just some good ol' US-bashing, I'll read the Guardian.
That's funny! When I want some reliably misinformed, stereotyped and overly simplified view of the US, or maybe just some good ol' US-breast-beating, I read Hiro11's posts. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by fatbrit
That's funny! When I want some reliably misinformed, stereotyped and overly simplified view of the US, or maybe just some good ol' US-breast-beating, I read Hiro11's posts.
Funniest thing I've read this year :D |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Ben
This is everywhere - black universities, black churches, black social clubs etc. If segregation hadn't been such a huge issue and allowed to be legal, these seperations wouldn't exist and therefore race wouldn't be such a huge issue.
There is also the way the government handles race. I couldn't help laughing (better than getting cross sometimes) at how stupid a jury notice was that told you to fill in your race but it wasn't going to be used to influence jury selection! So why do you HAVE to fill it in? I know they say it is so a jury of your peers is chosen but that shows that your race is used! Also, many states insisted for a long time that blood type/color was listed on birth certificates. Just one drop of black blood and you were listed as black, even if you passed as white. Even when segregation stopped, having such a point listed on your birth certificate seperates citizens every step of their life. The film "Twelve Angry Men" probably summed up the problems of the 50s whereby non-Caucasian defendants couldn't possibly receive a fair trial from the outset. NC Penguin |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Patrick
We have been fostering two black children over the holidays, they where 3 and 4. It promted a discussion between my wife and I about how we would handle getting a black baby. Would we bring it up as we are, or should we bring the child up to be "ethnic" to make him/her more socially acceptable when he/she grows up, otherwise s/he would just be a white person in black skin.
I said to Ellen, "do you know the worst part of this conversation?" and she said " that we actually have to have it!, welcome to America!" Its sad but true, if we where fostering and adopting in the UK we would have to even consider race, I wish it where the same here, but if we brought up an african american child in NC without a blaccent they would suffer in the long run. I'd like to take this opportunity to be completely honest. I live in a Southern state and spend a considerable amount of time around blended families. Children are just bundles of hair and flesh and poo. If you love and nurture them properly, they will flourish. Over-thinking these things is not the answer. There are no ideal circumstances..... doing your best is the most that anybody could ever ask for. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Ray
Which led to more questions as his wifes name is Mary....
ROFLMFAO literally!!! |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by rushman
ROFLMFAO literally!!!
It was GOOD, wasn't it !! :D |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by NC Penguin
I can see a reason for jury selection to include asking about potential jurors race. By doing so, it removes the initial problem of a white majority jury sitting on a trial about a non-Caucasian defendant.
The film "Twelve Angry Men" probably summed up the problems of the 50s whereby non-Caucasian defendants couldn't possibly receive a fair trial from the outset. NC Penguin I think the reason why I found it not right was because this question is asked everywhere - schools, colleges, job applications etc. Everything else, except jury selection and immigration forms, so far have been voluntary to fill in and all give the same reasons for asking the question. Even though many are voluntary they still ask the question. Why? Just so they can get statistics on people. I had all 3 of my children in the UK and they all went to school there for a short while. Not once was I ever asked what race my children were. I hate being asked, just as I hate being asked what religion we are. It stinks of segregation in another form. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Hiro11
Books are written about this subject, I'll be brief on my personal views:
Overt racism is probably hard to find, passive racism probably very easy to find. I think class is a much bigger issue than race in this country. When people talk about racial disparities, they're generally referring to issues that have economics at their heart, not race. I think racism is a much bigger issue for certain minorities than others (Asians vs. black, for example). My (Korean) wife is mostly subject to only positive stereotypes (except that whole "submissive Asian female" bullshit). These are equally irritating but easier to deal with obviously. Racism for or against the fast growing Hispanic minority is an extremely complicated issue, I'll dodge it for now. Multiculturalism and affirmative action have done more to drive wedges between races in this country than the Klan, IMO. Read some Dinesh D'Souza or Thomas Sowell sometime to get more on this viewpoint. The US is hugely diverse and has much larger minority populations than any country I can think of. Trying to compare it to other countries is simply not possible. Race is probably less of an issue in the UK because the minority population is much smaller. I think far too many politicians, celebrities, media figures, universities etc "play the race card" far too often. It's a good way to get votes, a good way to play up your PC credentials and a good way to seem politically aware on an issue that people will find it very hard to argue with. Lastly, if I want to get a reliably misinformed, stereotyped and overly simplified view of the US, or maybe just some good ol' US-bashing, I'll read the Guardian. I am sure racisim exists, and always will...among the ignorrant and uneducated predominantly; however I also think that certain ethnic 'leaders' (Jessee Jackson, Al Sharpton, Queasy Infume) have a vested intrest (personal power) in making things seem worse than they are, and keeping their 'own' followers motivated. My personal belief is that perhaps the black community should look at their own actions and ask themselves if perhaps they are in part responsible for the stereotyps generated. Except we know that any who actually do ask this are branded as Uncle Tom's (Alan Keys, Bill Cosby...) Perhaps |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Hiro11
Lastly, if I want to get a reliably misinformed, stereotyped and overly simplified view of the US, or maybe just some good ol' US-bashing, I'll read the Guardian.
|
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by flybyday
You're entire posting was very well-put, Hiro11, but especially that last paragraph. The Guardian is a joke---intellectually at the same level as FoxNews is here, in terms of journalistic bias, but with highbrow underpinings that Fox News obviously lacks (not to mention, of course, a completely different idiological slant). You will find more insight and accuracy in American cultural analysis in People Magazine than you ever would find in the Guardian.
Hello! Did you join BE especially so you could post these pearls of wisdom? :confused: |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Elvira
Hello!
Did you join BE especially so you could post these pearls of wisdom? :confused: |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Elvira
Hello!
Did you join BE especially so you could post these pearls of wisdom? :confused: Must've been a lurker, waiting for some pearls from you...and after 3,200 posts gave up on you...as have most. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by flybyday
You're entire posting was very well-put, Hiro11, but especially that last paragraph. The Guardian is a joke---intellectually at the same level as FoxNews is here, in terms of journalistic bias, but with highbrow underpinings that Fox News obviously lacks (not to mention, of course, a completely different idiological slant). You will find more insight and accuracy in American cultural analysis in People Magazine than you ever would find in the Guardian.
Thats funny - anyone who read the story would see that it is the work of Associated Press. :confused: |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by ironporer
Must've been a lurker, waiting for some pearls from you...and after 3,200 posts gave up on you...as have most.
|
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Chorlton
meow :D
Please translate - I'm not feeling catty today ;) (Surely you are not agreeing with Ironporer? :confused: :( ) |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Elvira
Please translate - I'm not feeling catty today ;)
(Surely you are not agreeing with Ironporer? :confused: :( ) |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Chorlton
Thats funny - anyone who read the story would see that it is the work of Associated Press. :confused:
Unbelievable that what is actually an AP newswire story is quickly dismissed because it was actually also published on the Guardian's site. They live in their own little world these people. Luckily, it's shrinking rapidly as those who are capable of using their brain are jumping ship. |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by fatbrit
They live in their own little world these people. Luckily, it's shrinking rapidly as those who are capable of using their brain are jumping ship.
Yep! Out where the buses don't run!! :rolleyes: |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by Partystar
It didn't seem that way to me, it seemed more along the lines of 'Oooooo handbag!'!!!
thats it :) |
Re: Race issues
Originally Posted by ironporer
.among the ignorrant and uneducated predominantly;
"That's just what Black people are like" "That is how they behave" "You can't trust them" etc.... |
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