Poverty in the USA
Mar 1st 2012, 8:29 pm
#166
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Re: Poverty in the USA
I think your standards are unrealistically high as to how much control everyone has over their destiny. A daughter who leaves an abusive household and ends up living in her car, I suppose you could say, "Oh she could have tried much harder at school and got a better job", however on meeting that person I do feel they've been dealt a worse hand than many others.
Mar 1st 2012, 8:49 pm
#167
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Re: Poverty in the USA
There are plenty of what I call the "habitual homeless" on the streets of San Francisco. But equally there are a lot of people out there who clearly aren't in that category. Likely, when the economy was booming, they managed to get by month to month on a low wage job. Now they're out of a job and their unemployment benefits have expired, they're in deep shit. I really suggest that those on here who are in the "it's their own fault" camp volunteer to do charity work with the homeless and gain a rather better understanding of what's a very complex issue.
I agree.......well said!
Mar 1st 2012, 10:13 pm
#168
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Re: Poverty in the USA
My, all these smug, self-satisfied know-it-alls on this thread.
Poverty has always been in the US.
......Notwithstanding Michael Moore or the various documentaries by lefties, most poor Americans aren't starving. Food pantries exist everywhere, food stamps are widely available and when it comes to scraping the barrel the $.50 packet of spaghetti and the $.50 tin of tomato sauce feeds four.
Next: homelessness. Most homeless people are dingbat crazy with mental problems fuelled by alcohol and drug abuse. ......So the next time you go to DC or San Francisco or LA and are aghast at the number of homeless bums on the street, remember that it isn't because of poverty/no jobs but because they have mental and drug problems and have consistently refused state and private charity assistance, ........ These people were poor yet at the same time they weren't the poor of the 19th century urban cities in England or the mill towns of New England.
Hey, I ain't saying there ain't no problems in the good ol' U S of A .........and will manipulate the paperwork to make me disabled so I wouldn't ever have to work again. Yep, I totally agree there are poor people in the US. Yep, I agree some people are homeless due to no job and no money. Yep, I totally agree there's a seemingly impossible to remove underclass and that portions of the traditional white working classes is slipping into this underclass. Yep, I agree the health care system is *****ed up.
........most Americans have long since concluded that there will always be poor people. Most Americans have also long believed for both unfair and unfair reasons that poor people are poor because of personal decisions they made. ///Most Americans have generally concluded they prefer the tradeoffs of lower taxes and higher personal incomes for the majority of the population than a much larger welfare state./// Ain't saying it's the right approach, but it does explain why from the American perspective the country doesn't have a large poverty problem, whereas from the European perspective the country does.///
......... Fifty years ago the stereotypical Brit was a groomed stiff upper lip gentleman. Today the stereotypical Brit, as my American friends consistently like to remind me, is a tattooed unemployed chav and his girl alternatively drunk in city centres or on beaches in Ibiza, entirely paid for by HM's government. But that's the tradeoffs the Brits were willing to make.
Poverty has always been in the US.
......Notwithstanding Michael Moore or the various documentaries by lefties, most poor Americans aren't starving. Food pantries exist everywhere, food stamps are widely available and when it comes to scraping the barrel the $.50 packet of spaghetti and the $.50 tin of tomato sauce feeds four.
Next: homelessness. Most homeless people are dingbat crazy with mental problems fuelled by alcohol and drug abuse. ......So the next time you go to DC or San Francisco or LA and are aghast at the number of homeless bums on the street, remember that it isn't because of poverty/no jobs but because they have mental and drug problems and have consistently refused state and private charity assistance, ........ These people were poor yet at the same time they weren't the poor of the 19th century urban cities in England or the mill towns of New England.
Hey, I ain't saying there ain't no problems in the good ol' U S of A .........and will manipulate the paperwork to make me disabled so I wouldn't ever have to work again. Yep, I totally agree there are poor people in the US. Yep, I agree some people are homeless due to no job and no money. Yep, I totally agree there's a seemingly impossible to remove underclass and that portions of the traditional white working classes is slipping into this underclass. Yep, I agree the health care system is *****ed up.
........most Americans have long since concluded that there will always be poor people. Most Americans have also long believed for both unfair and unfair reasons that poor people are poor because of personal decisions they made. ///Most Americans have generally concluded they prefer the tradeoffs of lower taxes and higher personal incomes for the majority of the population than a much larger welfare state./// Ain't saying it's the right approach, but it does explain why from the American perspective the country doesn't have a large poverty problem, whereas from the European perspective the country does.///
......... Fifty years ago the stereotypical Brit was a groomed stiff upper lip gentleman. Today the stereotypical Brit, as my American friends consistently like to remind me, is a tattooed unemployed chav and his girl alternatively drunk in city centres or on beaches in Ibiza, entirely paid for by HM's government. But that's the tradeoffs the Brits were willing to make.
Your first line was enough tbh. Anyone with an opposing view is a 'self-satisfied...etc. And then? You go on to demonstrate the same thing!!!
The Michael Moore thing;-I left that in for a specific reason. The man's a complete sham. To make his point on the health care system, he was allowed free access to Gitmo. Michael Moore-Gitmo! Of course to make his point Gitmo was sweetness and light!!
Another thoroughly odious know-it-all. And you made assumptions of Left-and put that multi millionaire in. Ha!
As to the rest: well kiddo, it says more about you than what you are attempting to convey! There's a nice little grab bag of stuff there, but the hilarious description of the stereotypical stiff upper lipped gentleman cracked me up!
Don't point out the perceptions of others when you come up with this tripe!
.......I didn't claim to not have empathy for the genuinely poor nor did I claim that more couldn't be done to help them. But I do understand the camp that believes many of the problems facing poor people are problems of their own making and problems they repeat regardless of the countless warning signs around them .....
.....But unlike you I can see how the majority of Americans have adapted what is a rather pragmatic if still brutal attitude towards the poor in their society. .......Now, I'll repeat what I said earlier, I don't always agree 100% with the American attitude but I can see the brutal logic behind it.....
If you want to go ahead and label me with all sorts of awful names just because I offered a differed opinion and disagreed with you, fine. It's all part of the great game of internet forum rantings. But don't forget that if you want to criticise me as out of touch with the reality facing the poor in the USA, just remember you're probably just as out of touch with the reality facing the poor the UK so much of the holier than thou preaching at the Americans is completing ignoring the old saying: let he who is without sin cast the first stone (don't worry I'm happily atheist if it makes you happy).
.....But unlike you I can see how the majority of Americans have adapted what is a rather pragmatic if still brutal attitude towards the poor in their society. .......Now, I'll repeat what I said earlier, I don't always agree 100% with the American attitude but I can see the brutal logic behind it.....
If you want to go ahead and label me with all sorts of awful names just because I offered a differed opinion and disagreed with you, fine. It's all part of the great game of internet forum rantings. But don't forget that if you want to criticise me as out of touch with the reality facing the poor in the USA, just remember you're probably just as out of touch with the reality facing the poor the UK so much of the holier than thou preaching at the Americans is completing ignoring the old saying: let he who is without sin cast the first stone (don't worry I'm happily atheist if it makes you happy).
The highlight says it all. I appreciate that you wrote that. (No sarcasm btw).
There are plenty of what I call the "habitual homeless" on the streets of San Francisco. But equally there are a lot of people out there who clearly aren't in that category. Likely, when the economy was booming, they managed to get by month to month on a low wage job. Now they're out of a job and their unemployment benefits have expired, they're in deep shit. I really suggest that those on here who are in the "it's their own fault" camp volunteer to do charity work with the homeless and gain a rather better understanding of what's a very complex issue.
I agree with you. Others would expect that, so I'll confirm it.
________________________________
....and yet again. The difference is the arrogant profile of the USA of being biggeran', betteran',-and splashing trillions on 'defence', yet having such poverty.
You cannot blame those who have mental health problems for their plight. I'm personally a little harder on the addicts-BUT I always look further than 'effect'. Every damn thing is connected in this life/society. I look at 'cause'. I look further than the end result. Many do; most do not.
Edit: spell correction.
Mar 2nd 2012, 12:39 am
#169
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Re: Poverty in the USA
I will comment on several replies in one.
I am really surprised at the comments here, from name calling to cherry picking and mislabeling comments. Anyone can find an exception to a rule, but generally this should not be a concern for the average Briton considering immigration. Health care long term yes, but living in a box eating rats no.
The point I was making with the stats was they have more than many europeans, including UK "poor." 99% are not eating rats etc... Their quality of life is higher than the majority of the world. I have seen poverty in Mexico, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Soviet Union, it is all definitions and standards.
Poverty rate in US is 15.1% an increase per Census Bureau, poverty rate in UK is 19% and going down (from 22%), same year. Did a government turn this around or did individuals. From the flavor of comments here no one is crediting the current UK government for the decrease.
The same News organization that produced the original sensational story has the same story on the UK " Chidren in poverty" BBC "More than 3.5m children live below the poverty line in the UK, which has one of the worst child poverty rates in the industrialised world." If you want to find evidence for any point you can find it.
The fundemental difference in this thread is the philosophical differences in culture. Ethos 83 made some excellent points on the philosophical differences between the countries, as did a couple others.
Just becasue you do not like the data, or attribute bias to the source Hertiage vs. BBC, you are intellectually dishonest, by not agreeing a bias may exist either way, including the original story. They did a story about poverty, who do you think they would find, but the most extreme caes?
If they did a story on successful Britons in the US I bet they could find a few, some who post on this forum. Everyone here can find a reason they do not like the data, but the data quoted from Hertiage was from the US Census Bureau under a Democrat Admin not their own survey.
The idea that the "poor" would not report their status to a gov't worker, yet seek/accept gov't help is disturbing itself. I do not trust you (gov't) with my information, but trust you (gov't) to provide for my famlies healthcare, housing and food. This is completely illogical.
The idea that there are all these "Vets" homeless is a talking point. Can you find some yes, but we take care of our soldiers far better than in the 70's ( I am one so I have current experience in this). I am accused of talking points, so to Sir are you. Veterans, have a much better chance of job offers than non-vets, that is a fact in the US. The US has treated it vets inckuding current wars far better than most "allies." Again cultural.
The Thatcher comments. Understand the ownership of counsel houses did not go as planned, but it was a noble idea. Why would you not let them buy it, if they could afford it. Well that is why we have problem here now, the government and lenders gave money to people who should not have gotten it and could not afford their homes, hence foreclosures for many. Understanding some people did get laid off, and found themselves in a foreclsoure, but again not the norm.
On her other Privitization issues, most of those seem successful those they did not suvivie were never sustainable in the first place. Britons now enjoy dividends from those stocks and investments by their private pension funds, I am sure many here have those investments that would not be possible without privitization.
BLUF: I am not picking a fight or saying come to the land of mik and honey, but I am saying the doom and gloom reports are not the norm. Are there poor people in the world, yes. Should everyone be the same, no. It didn't work to good in Socialist countries. Even those have/had elites. Is govt the way, I doubt it, Greece and European debt crisis. Is the US the only way, no. Make your own way and your own decisions, but the more you rely on someone else you will never be happy.
In Conclusion, Britons with purpose, direction and motivation tend to do very well in this country, including my wife and children, who all survived without eating rats before we were married. So do Phillipinos, Mexicans, Canadians and Germans.
I am really surprised at the comments here, from name calling to cherry picking and mislabeling comments. Anyone can find an exception to a rule, but generally this should not be a concern for the average Briton considering immigration. Health care long term yes, but living in a box eating rats no.
The point I was making with the stats was they have more than many europeans, including UK "poor." 99% are not eating rats etc... Their quality of life is higher than the majority of the world. I have seen poverty in Mexico, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Soviet Union, it is all definitions and standards.
Poverty rate in US is 15.1% an increase per Census Bureau, poverty rate in UK is 19% and going down (from 22%), same year. Did a government turn this around or did individuals. From the flavor of comments here no one is crediting the current UK government for the decrease.
The same News organization that produced the original sensational story has the same story on the UK " Chidren in poverty" BBC "More than 3.5m children live below the poverty line in the UK, which has one of the worst child poverty rates in the industrialised world." If you want to find evidence for any point you can find it.
The fundemental difference in this thread is the philosophical differences in culture. Ethos 83 made some excellent points on the philosophical differences between the countries, as did a couple others.
Just becasue you do not like the data, or attribute bias to the source Hertiage vs. BBC, you are intellectually dishonest, by not agreeing a bias may exist either way, including the original story. They did a story about poverty, who do you think they would find, but the most extreme caes?
If they did a story on successful Britons in the US I bet they could find a few, some who post on this forum. Everyone here can find a reason they do not like the data, but the data quoted from Hertiage was from the US Census Bureau under a Democrat Admin not their own survey.
The idea that the "poor" would not report their status to a gov't worker, yet seek/accept gov't help is disturbing itself. I do not trust you (gov't) with my information, but trust you (gov't) to provide for my famlies healthcare, housing and food. This is completely illogical.
The idea that there are all these "Vets" homeless is a talking point. Can you find some yes, but we take care of our soldiers far better than in the 70's ( I am one so I have current experience in this). I am accused of talking points, so to Sir are you. Veterans, have a much better chance of job offers than non-vets, that is a fact in the US. The US has treated it vets inckuding current wars far better than most "allies." Again cultural.
The Thatcher comments. Understand the ownership of counsel houses did not go as planned, but it was a noble idea. Why would you not let them buy it, if they could afford it. Well that is why we have problem here now, the government and lenders gave money to people who should not have gotten it and could not afford their homes, hence foreclosures for many. Understanding some people did get laid off, and found themselves in a foreclsoure, but again not the norm.
On her other Privitization issues, most of those seem successful those they did not suvivie were never sustainable in the first place. Britons now enjoy dividends from those stocks and investments by their private pension funds, I am sure many here have those investments that would not be possible without privitization.
BLUF: I am not picking a fight or saying come to the land of mik and honey, but I am saying the doom and gloom reports are not the norm. Are there poor people in the world, yes. Should everyone be the same, no. It didn't work to good in Socialist countries. Even those have/had elites. Is govt the way, I doubt it, Greece and European debt crisis. Is the US the only way, no. Make your own way and your own decisions, but the more you rely on someone else you will never be happy.
In Conclusion, Britons with purpose, direction and motivation tend to do very well in this country, including my wife and children, who all survived without eating rats before we were married. So do Phillipinos, Mexicans, Canadians and Germans.
Mar 2nd 2012, 12:45 am
#170
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Re: Poverty in the USA
I'm probably one who falls under the category of "successful Brit in the US". But that sure as heck doesn't persuade me that there isn't something seriously wrong with the way poverty is dealt (or rather, not dealt) with in this country.
Mar 2nd 2012, 12:47 am
#171
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Re: Poverty in the USA
Mar 2nd 2012, 12:54 am
#172
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Re: Poverty in the USA
This is a generally considered a safe tactic, because sweeping generalizations are usually vague enough to cover myriad situations... but it's nothing more than a ploy - and I'm not going to bite.
Ian
Mar 2nd 2012, 12:56 am
#173
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Re: Poverty in the USA
I recognize the tactic. First, sweeping generalizations are made to make a point, and then a specific situation is highlighted to drive home the concept... as though that explains and justifies the sweeping generalizations made earlier - and all with the goal of leaving you thinking that everyone suffers that same specific situation.
This is a generally considered a safe tactic, because sweeping generalizations are usually vague enough to cover myriad situations... but it's nothing more than a ploy - and I'm not going to bite.
Ian
This is a generally considered a safe tactic, because sweeping generalizations are usually vague enough to cover myriad situations... but it's nothing more than a ploy - and I'm not going to bite.
Ian
What do you do at the homeless shelter, stand and berate them?
Mar 2nd 2012, 1:03 am
#174
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Re: Poverty in the USA
The real reason people hate Thatcher, because she took away our school milk 
Oh and she introduced the Poll tax, which household owners loved, but tenants, especially students didn't
Oh and she introduced the Poll tax, which household owners loved, but tenants, especially students didn't
Mar 2nd 2012, 1:10 am
#175
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Re: Poverty in the USA
We have programs at the National and state level for people in dire straits. Private programs exist also. The idea that poverty is pervasive in America is wrong. Is it a fact yes, as long as we have a free market there will always be poor in Europe and America. In a socialist state everyone is provided for, but there is no middle class, and this system failed.
Who pays for all the "free" stuff?" I am sure no one here paid more than they were required to by law in taxes. The govt in not as efficient as the private sector in giving that support. I give to charity, that have low operating costs. Those that trust the govt with their money can send more if they choose including Warren Buffet, or he could drop his lawsuit against the IRS over $1.5 billion in unpaid taxes, or pay more voluntarily.
IMHO: Once we empower the government over all our lives, then you start to loose you freedom.... to escape poverty.
Mar 2nd 2012, 1:12 am
#176
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Mar 2nd 2012, 1:18 am
#177
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Re: Poverty in the USA
Fortunately, I didn't grow up in the US and had ready access to healthcare and tertiary education despite spending my teenage years in a budget-constrained single-parent household. Maybe I would have succeeded likewise in the US, but it sure as heck would have been far more difficult. Accessibility to the two things I mention are two reasons why the US is now lagging behind many western European countries in terms of social mobility.
Mar 2nd 2012, 1:59 am
#179
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Re: Poverty in the USA
I think you miss the point I was trying to make. It is not the govt's job to make people middle class or higher? This is the philosophical difference I addressed. You succeded on your merits and no doubt had hard times, but succeded nonetheless.
We have programs at the National and state level for people in dire straits. Private programs exist also. The idea that poverty is pervasive in America is wrong. Is it a fact yes, as long as we have a free market there will always be poor in Europe and America. In a socialist state everyone is provided for, but there is no middle class, and this system failed.
Who pays for all the "free" stuff?" I am sure no one here paid more than they were required to by law in taxes. The govt in not as efficient as the private sector in giving that support. I give to charity, that have low operating costs. Those that trust the govt with their money can send more if they choose including Warren Buffet, or he could drop his lawsuit against the IRS over $1.5 billion in unpaid taxes, or pay more voluntarily.
IMHO: Once we empower the government over all our lives, then you start to loose you freedom.... to escape poverty.
We have programs at the National and state level for people in dire straits. Private programs exist also. The idea that poverty is pervasive in America is wrong. Is it a fact yes, as long as we have a free market there will always be poor in Europe and America. In a socialist state everyone is provided for, but there is no middle class, and this system failed.
Who pays for all the "free" stuff?" I am sure no one here paid more than they were required to by law in taxes. The govt in not as efficient as the private sector in giving that support. I give to charity, that have low operating costs. Those that trust the govt with their money can send more if they choose including Warren Buffet, or he could drop his lawsuit against the IRS over $1.5 billion in unpaid taxes, or pay more voluntarily.
IMHO: Once we empower the government over all our lives, then you start to loose you freedom.... to escape poverty.
Let's be honest, you are basing all your comment on conservative ideology. Ergo: if there is poverty it isn't that bad/we have food stamps etc/ it is largely their fault.
Conservative ideology does this repeatedly.
And NO I do NOT believe in excessive handouts. What I cannot stand is the denial. Such wealth-such poverty. But...depending how you look at it....'it isn't that bad'. Sheesh!
It was not so!
Mar 2nd 2012, 2:28 am
#180
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Re: Poverty in the USA
The idea that widespread poverty in a wealthy country is acceptable-is a disgrace.
Let's be honest, you are basing all your comment on conservative ideology. Ergo: if there is poverty it isn't that bad/we have food stamps etc/ it is largely their fault.
Conservative ideology does this repeatedly.
And NO I do NOT believe in excessive handouts. What I cannot stand is the denial. Such wealth-such poverty. But...depending how you look at it....'it isn't that bad'. Sheesh!
For shame! I loved me' milk!
It was not so!
Let's be honest, you are basing all your comment on conservative ideology. Ergo: if there is poverty it isn't that bad/we have food stamps etc/ it is largely their fault.
Conservative ideology does this repeatedly.
And NO I do NOT believe in excessive handouts. What I cannot stand is the denial. Such wealth-such poverty. But...depending how you look at it....'it isn't that bad'. Sheesh!
For shame! I loved me' milk!
It was not so!
It is not widespread, what do you not get. It is as wide spread as in europe and all other developed countries.
UK rate 19% vs US rate 15.1% I did not hear that comment? Or in response to your many other comments that were refuted in previous posts.
Just post on the BBC article I referenced, citing a larger problem in the UK, before bashing the US. People in glass houses do not throw rocks. The larger problem with the welfare state in europe, which we see now from our shores.
Somethimes Fault = personal choice for all. Do I do this or that, pay for kids food or buy drugs, sneakers whatever. Do I have a TV or but insurance. All are individual choices, Internet vs food etc... Deprivation is not common in this country, as your motherland. Are some unable to escape through circumstance (drungs/environment/Choice), yes, but those are rare cases, not common or in line with this thread, or its intent by the original poster.
Yes I am a libertarian/conservative, but that does not dispute the fact that: "A large portion of Americans are not eating rats to survive." You may be a liberal or communist or whatever, I am only stating the common philosophy here and to info Britons, that the vast majority would do well here, better than some/most USC's.
I expect you to send the US gov 10% over your required amount to rectify this "injustice." Because you said it so well. If you do not pay US taxes, address payment to the US Treasury your "gift" to then to resolve this injustice.