snowbunny

Social Security was NOT set up to provide disability payments. While the Great Generation and the Baby Boomers were both paying in, there was a pot of money that was used to provide this benefit. SSDI has greatly increased the rate at which the SS surplus is disappearing. It would be better to have this as a separate pool to address the needs of the two very different populations.

SSDI is also capricious. It can take years for someone who's legitimately disabled to get a penny out, while I hear these horror stories of people who milk it for all it's worth.

Michael

As things currently stand, the social security fund will run out by 2044. It can easily be fixed to the end of the century by increasing increasing SS taxes by 1%. However, even if the US doubled the social security tax, there wouldn't be any money there anyway since the government will reduce the income tax causing the government to borrow the money from the social security fund leaving nothing in it. The only thing that would be accomplished would be that the tax burden would be shifted more from the richer people to the middle class and poor.

Catch 22.

AmerLisa

I don't know what Fantasyland show you were watching.....but getting benefits here isn't easy. There are huge waiting lists for Section 8 housing (HUD) and then you'd have to find someone that accepted it. As far as welfare - I can't imagine anyone would make $45,000 a year off of it.....if they did sign me up! Getting SSI (long term Social Security disability) is even harder. You're BIL would have seriously had to have a disability and get that.

Steerpike

Let's not turn this into another heated name calling thread ... I suspect his BIL got away with it and let's take that as fact; your point is that it's hard to get away with it, harder here than in Europe, and I would agree.

I personally know one or two programmers who have played the 'RSI (repetitive stress injury)' card, and have been declared disabled, and are receiving a healthy disability payment.

Abuses occur everywhere. The key fact for this forum, I believe, is the idea that it is far harder to get it here than in Europe. Europeans err on the side of giving a benefit even if you don't deserve it, the US errs the other way.

AmerLisa

Not calling anyone names. But I've known two people that have had serious disabilities and had to jump through hoops to get SSI benefits. And to say that anyone could possibly make $45,000 a year here, off of welfare benefits, is ludicrous to say the least. Whether its a good or bad thing remains to be seen, but it just doesn't happen here. Welfare isn't something that's easily lived off of here.

Steerpike

I'm in IT and we just hired a mid-level IT guy. We had to go through a huge bureaucratic process (for a company of 40) to determine whether this position was 'exempt' or not. Basically, we want to pay the guy well, and in return, have him work hard. Being IT, we know he's going to have to work nights/weekends, but being a fun company we will give him time off/comp time/etc, and we know there will be 'light days' where he can goof off/etc. But because of some new laws in the US (which I will loosely call, 'European style' laws ), all IT ppl have to be paid as non-exempt (hourly) unless you can 'prove' the position is 'exempt' (salaried).

Basically, if I have to hire this guy as an hourly, which involves timesheets, supervision, approvals for OT, sign-offs, etc - then it ain't gonna happen - we're a small startup and I don't have the time to 'manage' at that level; I'd rather bring in an outside contractor and literally pay him by the hour for work done. I work firmly on the principal of pay above market and expect a lot - and I make that clear in the interview (I asked the guy how much he wanted, and offered him 10% more b/c I wanted him to be happy and productive).

We finally got our HR advisers to agree the position was exempt, but not before a significant amount of effort. These laws were brought in to prevent abuses but they are also a significant burden to productivity.

Michael

First of all, I didn't say she made everything off SSI benefits. She was a little vague but definately claimed that she was getting $600 for section 8, $1500 for child care, and the remainder from welfare, food stamps, and aid to dependent childred but the amounts for those were not given. If the total of the last three items was $600, the total benefits would be $2,700 per month or $32,400 per year. I said the $45,000 included benefits and salary. If her total salary was $1100 per month, that would cause her total salary and benefits to exceed $45,000 per year. Maybe she was completely lying but remember she claims she was getting $1500 per month for child care payments for her 2 children which I thought was a little high but states like Wisconson have had a policy to try to get welfare mothers off welfare so it may possibly be true. Without the $1500 per month child care to allow her to work, total government benefit payments would only come to $1200 per month. In my mind, I could possibly believe those figures.

No one said that it is easy to get social security and long term disability benefits. My BIL was turned down for social security benefits when he applied just like 99% of all Americans. He then hired a lawyer and it took about two years for the government to agree that he was eligible for the benefits. Once that was approved, he was then automatically eligible for his union supported long term disability which brought the total benefits (private and government) to near his previous salary until he turns 65.

You seem to believe that everyone in the US that is collecting social security disability deserves it. My opinion is that less than half that are currently receiving it deserve it. My opinion is that if everyone that had similar problems as anyone those that were currently receiving social security disability benefits were given benefits, the number receiving social security benefits would sky rocket.

Hell, half the people in the world have problems such as back problems, carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, depressions, fibo, cfs, ocd, aches and pains, etc. Fortunatly most people in the world will struggle trying to be a productive member of the society. If they all received government disability benefits every time work became difficult, governments around the world would collapse under the burden to support so many people.

Steerpike

As do I - I know several people who deserve it but get turned down.

'anyone' - or a lot of people? I doubt that many people are able to get away with significant abuses of the system, b/c the system is hard to beat, but - I am 'sure' there are some who get away with it. And those that do, and get caught, get turned into poster-children for the Republican party when showing why the welfare system is bad ...

You are speaking in absolutes; "doesn't happen much" maybe true. "doesn't happen at all" - not true. I suspect it happens a heck of a lot less than in Europe, and I think everyone will agree on that.

Michael

Are you sure that your human resource mananger just decided to translate the law as it was written a long time ago. The laws have always been on the books and were much more stringently enforced in the 1960s prior to Silicon Valley type companies. Usually small hi-tech companies ignore many of the laws and only large hi-tech companies enforce them strigently.

We all know that all companies large and small must usually treat secretaries, janitors, building security, building maintence, and other such personel as non-exempt. However, when it comes to IT personnel, that can get quite tricky.

Usually all programmers are classified as exempt but it is unclear as to whether a QA engineer, tech support engineer, or a maintenance engineer can always be classified exempt. If they are misclassified, the company can be sued for back wages.

The following is a document that tries to give a brief summary of how to classify personnel according to government laws. The summary includes positions in Executive, Administrative, Learned Professionals, Creative Professionals, Computer Employee, Outside Sales, and highly compensated employees.

http://www.ecouncil.org/FairPay2004.htm

AmerLisa

Welfare and SSI payments do not amount to $45,000. It just doesn't happen. Maybe quite a few years ago, but not now - well you'd have to claim you had dozens of children and many years ago. I'd be surprised that anyone could say they lived comfortably off of welfare or SSI benefits.

AmerLisa

They just don't hand out SSI benefits to everyone. Your BIL had to have concrete proof that he was disabled and would remain that way for the foreseeable future. He truly had to be disabled. And carpel tunnel syndrome wouldn't cut it. I just don't know how to convince you how very wrong you are with your assumptions and opinions. In fact I find them amazing....

As far as the welfare benefits.....again, getting the bare minimum is all that is usually given. If someone has found a way of making more money, well it will be the rare person and I say more power to them.

Steerpike

This is something that has hit me twice now in recent years at two different companies, relating specifically to IT System Administrators/Network Administrators, etc - not analysts, designers, etc. There have been a number of high-profile lawsuits in the past several years and it has given rise to much 'clarification' from HR types. This page briefly refers to a big problem they got into at EA (Electronic Arts) - a computer game producer that was notorious for 'requiring' its exempt employees to work long, sustained overtime prior to game release (the link is not a great one; I just don't have time to find better ones, but it was quite the story in the valley at the time and sent shock-waves through the community). I know several ppl who work there and it was a very real event.

I ignored the issue at a prior company; was forced by the HR person at my previous place to deal with it, and this time - we are so small that we use outside HR and they too are pushing us to classify our System Administrators as hourly and refuse to work with us if we don't follow their advice (liability issues). The issue comes down to questions about how much 'personal judgment' they exercise in the execution of their duties; if you spend more than 'x' amount of your day carrying out the instructions of others, you really can't be classified as exempt - according to the rules. And if you don't pay them at least $95k (California only - other states lower), you are almost 'guaranteed' to be hourly.

Ironically, my alternative - to hire contractors instead - has also been the subject of many lawsuits. Micro$oft got hit big time because it used 'contractors' to do what was essentially permanent employee work, and they were forced to grant stock options to these former contractors.

Steerpike

I know at least two people, both programmer/analysts at one medium sized company (~500) in San Francisco, who are no longer working and are on some form of benefit program (I could not say whether it was SSI ... they may be on private disability insurance or govt. program). I worked there myself, know these people personally, and I have several friends STILL there, and they know these people well, and they have confirmed that they are still off work and on disability approx. 10 years later. This is not an assumption or opinion - it is a personally known fact. Their ONLY complaint is hand/arm/upper back issues, attributed to either RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome (I've heard both mentioned, and I can't tell you the difference). Whether their complaint is genuine or not I can't personally say; one was decidedly lazy and I suspect she was 'working the system', but - no one will ever admit to that.

If you wish to disbelieve me, go ahead, but I have no reason to lie. The company spent a LOT of money on 'ergonomic improvements' after these incidents ... everyone got adjustable keyboard trays, etc ... a trend that is strong now in the area.

snowbunny

SSDI and other private disability cover is very dependent on whether or not a doctor will certify you as disabled and unable to perform ANY work. And the disability claim must be renewed periodically until the beneficiary reaches 65.

I would imagine California doctors to be more sympathetic to their patients' plight, and more willing to jump the hoops and fill out paperwork, than their counterparts in other states.

My mother was on *private* LTD and it was a nightmare. Most disabled folk lack the money to hire a lawyer to pursue their case, or the money to pay for all the tests that the insurer insists upon having done.

Steerpike

I know someone who has MS and had private LTD, and they refused to pay her, claiming you could NOT prove the disability. She fought it for a long time but gave up when the legal fees started to get scary and didn't want to risk the consequences of a lost case.

So I have personal experience of how difficult it can be to get benefits, and I also have personal experience of people seemingly 'playing the system'. I think overall the majority encounter the difficulties and only a few succeed at 'playing the system'.