Tracym

Oh I'll agree - the drug companies are b*stards.

And no, lots of that stuff is totally unfair.

I'm not sure what the best answer is here, if private companies are doing the R&D and selling the products.

Tracym

Well no problem discussing that - I'm opposed to it.

Now - if a company puts a ton of money into r&d, I think they should have the patent on it for a while, as they do. If they aren't allowed to recoup their investment, under our system that would remove the incentive to develop new drugs.

As for how people should pay for the drugs, that's a different issue and been done to death.

Elvira

Pricing agreements - the way we do it in Europe (and I bet Canada is the same). Seems to work, and the pharma companies have learned to live with it.

danfan

I don't think there is, because as you said, people here wouldn't tolerate a cap on profits, even if it meant the rest of those profits going to R&D.

We've mentioned different mindsets on here several times. This is the kind of thing many of us mean, I think. The EU (which does have some silly rules) is not afraid to implement such laws on the grounds of ethics and morality. And since they PAY for the drugs, they can dictate to the drug co's what they are are prepared to pay.

Ever read the book "The United States of Europe: The New Superpower and the End of American Supremacy" by Reid (a US journalist)? Very good book that does a great job at explaining some of those differences in beliefs.

danfan

They exist here - but between ins companies & drug companies instead. Two private companies aiming to make as much dough as possible so who's best interest? Theirs alone.

Tracym

Well sure. But not every country is going to do everything the same.

And there isn't necessarily only one ok way to do it.

You don't have to like it, and I'm sure you don't, but free competition and making profits are principles that many Americans hold dear.

Again, it's a battle between left and right, free competition and control to prevent abuses - where should the line go. Everyone is never going to agree.

The thing I keep saying is - regardless of your opinion or mine, a founding principle is government of the people - what the majority wants. So the country will move as far to the left or right as the voters choose.

Sometimes I might personally be agreeing with the majority, sometimes I won't. But I do believe in that principle. Not what some person (even myself) thinks is "right".

danfan

Nothing wrong with patents, IMO. It costs many millions to get a drug to marketing stage and by the time it gets to marketing, the patent is already years lapsed.
The patent starts with the initial chemical & 25 years patent. It can take 10 years to get it into a drug form, then another 5 in clinical trials.
I sold one drug where the patent had run out before it even came on sale because the FDA wanted more and more evidence that it wasn't addictive. By the time it hit the pharmicies, there were already generics for sale.

Tracym

I've taken a note of the book - thanks. It is interesting to me actually, since we're just so much bigger than any of the European nations, I can understand why they'd be much more - what - competitive? powerful? influential? compared to us once they banded together.

Tracym

Ouch.

I guess that's one thing I always find interesting in where the ideal line is between pure socialism and pure capitalism.

imo you do have to award effort and achievement, or noone'd be motivated to bother.

Elvira

When you say 'people', what do you mean. As far as I recall there have been calls for RX pricing from several groups in the US, and I am sure the patients who currently cannot afford the drugs they need would be in favour of it it.

But of course those powerful lobbies and politicians who are having their palms greased by the pharma companies are vehemently opposed.

And we all know that Bush was only elected courtesy of the oil and pharma companies.

BTW, I don't think pharma companies are bastards. They are businesses, and thus profit focused. But I would not criticise the ethos of most of the people who work in this business. It is at the strategic business and marketing end that executives try to get away with unsavoury practices.

But, in Europe, pharma companies have learnt to live with pricing restrictions, and they would learn to live with it here too. After all, they are the *same* companies - why should they charge Americans patients more than European ones?

And even in the US, the government stepped in to limit the ways pharma companies can market Rxs to doctors, i.e. restrict freebies.Now if they could do the same re. trying to influence politicians...

Elvira

Where did I say I don't like free competition? That does not preclude the need for protecting consumers. The FDA regulates the safety of Rxs - why not regulate the cost as well?

And I do not believe that the majority of Americans are opposed to pricing restrictions of pharmaceuticals.

Tracym

I certainly didn't mean everyone who worked for the company were b*tards. I was referring to the high level people who were employing enethical practices, like she referred to.

Just bc in Europe companies learned to live with things, doesn't mean it should be the same here. Maybe it should. Maybe it shouldn't.

But the US does not have a goal of becoming the same as the UK - or Europe.

There are different mindsets. You of course will like one more than the other - fair enough. But it doesn't really mean that one is better than the other either.

But that doesn't necessarily mean the US "should" do everything the same as the EU either.

Have you read the BBC articles on the NHS problems lately? That system is having problems as well.

danfan

Very powerful now & not liking Bush, either because he keeps trying to tell them what to do LOL. Example, Turkey has been trying to enter the EU for years but cannot because of their poor Human Rights record. Bush flew over to speak with the President of the EU at the time to convince him to allow entry for Turkey. Why? What's it got to do with him? By all accounts, he was pissed because the EU sent him away with the same message - this is our union & under no control of the US.

There are more Euros in the world than dollars. That creats a lot of power that EU industry can throw around in terms of import & export. Not to mention voting power in NATO & the UN.

Tracym

Well they all have a vote. They all elect those politicians.

I don't know all the details of laws regarding pricing restrictions. So I'm not going to say too much here. But generally, I think, the government regulates monopolies and price fixing, and then competition is, in theory anyway, supposed to control prices.

Tracym

Well good for them then

I don't like bullies in any form. And I have no clue why Bush likes Turkey, complete none.

Just law of international politics - governments will try to influence each other. But if we can't boss anyone around, fine with me.

Like I'm saying - I don't think every nation needs do things the same way, they can make their own choices.