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Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Old Jul 28th 2005, 6:28 pm
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Default Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

He entered UK on a visitors visa, then applied for a student visa... which expired in 2003. Seems like he had a forged stamp in his passport too. The home office released the details to stop speculation and said the news won't affect the investigation. No wonder he ran. sad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4725659.stm
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 6:57 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by Taffyles
He entered UK on a visitors visa, then applied for a student visa... which expired in 2003. Seems like he had a forged stamp in his passport too. The home office released the details to stop speculation and said the news won't affect the investigation. No wonder he ran. sad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4725659.stm
Maybe a crackdown on illegals could be in order to save them from themselves........!
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 7:42 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by krizzy
Maybe a crackdown on illegals could be in order to save them from themselves........!

Seems this man has been given a status far above any he would have achieved in life due to his terminal stupidity in running. Again just proves he does not deserve a penny from the UK for his death.
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 7:59 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by doctor scrumpy
Seems this man has been given a status far above any he would have achieved in life due to his terminal stupidity in running. Again just proves he does not deserve a penny from the UK for his death.
I wish I could ran....I twisted my knee days ago....it keeps getting better......and then goes on me again.......I've done all my e-mails.....watched endless DVDs......and I'm fed up of being told to rest it....but they are right.....I have to give it another 48 hours......

I really wanted the guy to have an up to date visa...then I could of been happier with his family getting money......but the sins of the father and all that.....maybe we can't blame his family because he was stupid.....but then again.....I still can't get passed that fact he was illegal.....I'm just so up in the air about it.......
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by krizzy
I wish I could ran....I twisted my knee days ago....it keeps getting better......and then goes on me again.......I've done all my e-mails.....watched endless DVDs......and I'm fed up of being told to rest it....but they are right.....I have to give it another 48 hours......

I really wanted the guy to have an up to date visa...then I could of been happier with his family getting money......but the sins of the father and all that.....maybe we can't blame his family because he was stupid.....but then again.....I still can't get passed that fact he was illegal.....I'm just so up in the air about it.......
I'm pretty sure they'll still get compensation. I don't think it will matter what nationality the guy was, or where his family live.
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 8:15 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by anotherlimey
I'm pretty sure they'll still get compensation. I don't think it will matter what nationality the guy was, or where his family live.
No matter how I feel about it myself.......deep down I can live with them getting compensation.......after dealing with people who so want visa's to move to the US for so long....its made me a bit hard hearted towards people living anywhere illegal......
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 8:49 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by krizzy
No matter how I feel about it myself.......deep down I can live with them getting compensation.......after dealing with people who so want visa's to move to the US for so long....its made me a bit hard hearted towards people living anywhere illegal......

We agree to disagree then Krizzy. I cannot see why he should get a penny, he was there illegally and presumably paid for the illegal stamp in his passport ?
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 8:54 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by doctor scrumpy
We agree to disagree then Krizzy. I cannot see why he should get a penny, he was there illegally and presumably paid for the illegal stamp in his passport ?
I don't know ......can I sit on the fence on this one.......because I want to agree with both sides........

I want his family to not suffer because 'he' was in the country illegal
But again I don't want them to have the money because he was an illegal......I feel very much like John Kerry right now...a flip flop...... :scared: :scared:
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 9:06 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by krizzy
I don't know ......can I sit on the fence on this one.......because I want to agree with both sides........

I want his family to not suffer because 'he' was in the country illegal
But again I don't want them to have the money because he was an illegal......I feel very much like John Kerry right now...a flip flop...... :scared: :scared:
Now you're being too hard on yourself
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 9:21 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by Taffyles
He entered UK on a visitors visa, then applied for a student visa... which expired in 2003. Seems like he had a forged stamp in his passport too. The home office released the details to stop speculation and said the news won't affect the investigation. No wonder he ran. sad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4725659.stm
Extremely sad. And I don't believe he was stupid, nor his parents....how very disrespectful of the dead. Perhaps being in the wrong place at the wrong time makes us all stupid?

I'm a bit naive in that I want to believe better of my fellow man.....its quite a bubble burst when something like this happens and then you read such callous replies. I don't care whether his family receives any kind of money, certainly nothing can replace their family member. But, I do hope that there is a strict review of the officers that were involved and changes made.
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by krizzy
I want his family to not suffer because 'he' was in the country illegal
But again I don't want them to have the money because he was an illegal......I feel very much like John Kerry right now...a flip flop...... :scared: :scared:
Look at it more as seeing things from a balanced perspective.....

they aren't getting money from the government *because he was in the country illegally*. If that were true, the US would be making a load of payouts. Think of all the aliens who die trying to make desert crossings -- the government does not compensate their families.

The reason they are getting the money has nothing to do with his status -- if he were an illegal *tourist* (not working but overstayed six months) they still deserve compensation for the police wrongly taking his life. You will note I said "wrongly" because they shot the wrong man.

If a doctor cut off the wrong leg in an amputation, would you hold him responsible? Doctors that do that didn't INTEND to do that sort of damage, but it was done.
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 9:35 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by snowbunny
Look at it more as seeing things from a balanced perspective.....

they aren't getting money from the government *because he was in the country illegally*. If that were true, the US would be making a load of payouts. Think of all the aliens who die trying to make desert crossings -- the government does not compensate their families.

The reason they are getting the money has nothing to do with his status -- if he were an illegal *tourist* (not working but overstayed six months) they still deserve compensation for the police wrongly taking his life. You will note I said "wrongly" because they shot the wrong man.

If a doctor cut off the wrong leg in an amputation, would you hold him responsible? Doctors that do that didn't INTEND to do that sort of damage, but it was done.

Now that makes sense. Thanks Snowbunny, well said.
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 9:35 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by snowbunny
Look at it more as seeing things from a balanced perspective.....

they aren't getting money from the government *because he was in the country illegally*. If that were true, the US would be making a load of payouts. Think of all the aliens who die trying to make desert crossings -- the government does not compensate their families.

The reason they are getting the money has nothing to do with his status -- if he were an illegal *tourist* (not working but overstayed six months) they still deserve compensation for the police wrongly taking his life. You will note I said "wrongly" because they shot the wrong man.

If a doctor cut off the wrong leg in an amputation, would you hold him responsible? Doctors that do that didn't INTEND to do that sort of damage, but it was done.

Ok.....balanced ....I can live with that more than being a flip flop......
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Old Jul 28th 2005, 10:03 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by AmerLisa
Extremely sad. And I don't believe he was stupid, nor his parents....how very disrespectful of the dead. Perhaps being in the wrong place at the wrong time makes us all stupid?

I'm a bit naive in that I want to believe better of my fellow man.....its quite a bubble burst when something like this happens and then you read such callous replies. I don't care whether his family receives any kind of money, certainly nothing can replace their family member. But, I do hope that there is a strict review of the officers that were involved and changes made.
I firmly believe that as the controversy dies down, the family of Jean Charles de Menezes will receive a compensation offer. However, no meaningful discipline can be visited on the officer(s) involved because they operated within the current rules for dealing with suspect suicide bombers where members of the public are in close proximity, namely kill shots to the head. So long as the officer believed Jean Charles de Menezes presented a serious risk of being a suicide bomber and represented a clear and present danger to members of the public, the officer was obliged to unload his gun into Jean Charles de Menezes's head. This is the fog of war, innocents will die. It is both wrong and tragic, but an inevitable outcome given the present circumstances with uncaptured suicide bombers (or their functional equivalent) on the loose and able to access the Tube and other mass transit systems. The fact that Jean Charles de Menezes ran onto a mass transit apparatus with public in likely close attendance satisfied one criteria. Jean Charles de Menezes wearing a coat, coming out of a suspect house, refusing to obey an order to stop, running into the tube station, jumping over turnstiles, running onto a tube train carriage containing members of the public ... on what legal basis can the officer(s) be disciplined if their actions fell inside written down instructions for dealing with suspect suicide bombers, Jean Charles de Menezes was a suspect suicide bomber who refused police orders to stop and ran into a tube carriage containing members of the public, at that point the officer(s) were free to unload their weapons into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, because that is what the written rules say: head shots to avoid setting off a bomb that might be wrapped around his waist or chest. But yes, the rules should be revisited, and alternative non-lethal weapons deployed so that officers have recourse beyond using lethal fire power but such weapons must have instant knock out capability to stop the suspect bomber setting off a bomb hidden from view but operatively attached to their person.

Last edited by Franklin; Jul 28th 2005 at 10:13 pm. Reason: Added more material.
 
Old Jul 28th 2005, 10:09 pm
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Default Re: Brazilian, Menezes's visa expired 2 years ago

Originally Posted by Franklin
I firmly believe that as the controversy dies down, the family of Jean Charles de Menezes will receive a compensation offer. However, no meaningful discipline can be visited on the officer(s) involved because they operated within the current rules for dealing with suspect suicide bombers where members of the public are in close proximity, namely kill shots to the head. So long as the officer believed Jean Charles de Menezes presented a serious risk of being a suicide bomber and represented a clear and present danger to members of the public, the officer was obliged to unload his gun into Jean Charles de Menezes's head. This is the fog of war, innocents will die. It is both wrong and tragic, but an inevitable outcome given the present circumstances with uncaptured suicide bombers (or their functional equivalent) on the loose and able to access the Tube and other mass transit systems. The fact that Jean Charles de Menezes ran onto a mass transit apparatus with public in likely close attendance satisfied one criteria. Jean Charles de Menezes wearing a coat, coming out of a suspect house, refusing to obey an order to stop, running into the tube station, jumping over turnstiles, running onto a tube train carriage containing members of the public ... on what legal basis can the officer(s) be disciplined if their actions fell inside written down instructions for dealing with suspect suicide bombers, Jean Charles de Menezes was a suspect suicide bomber who refused police orders to stop and ran into a tube carriage containing members of the public, at that point the officer(s) were free unload their weapons into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes, because that is what the written rules say: head shots to avoid setting off a bomb that might be wrapped around his waist or chest.

I appreciate what you say. I'm not saying that the officers involved should be criminally punished. I understand their heightened stress, etc. However, I do believe that whatever criteria they have to narrow down their suspicions need to be strictly reviewed, for everyone's safety.
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