VWP and the "short training" criteria
Feb 4th 2013, 10:26 pm
#1
Just Joined
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3
VWP and the "short training" criteria
Hi,
British citizen here. I'm looking to commence an 8 week training programme with a non-profit organisation in the coming month and I wanted to ask about the B-1 visa definition of "short-term training" (I'd be applying under Visa Waiver Programme for which I am eligible). I will be reimbursed for travel and expenditure, but that is strictly all.
To quote the US Gov Bureau of Consular Affairs PDF found online, they define training under B-1/VWP as:
"Training: Participating in a training program that is not designed primarily to provide employment. Will receive no payment or income from a U.S. based company/entity, other than an expense allowance or expense reimbursement related to traveler’s stay."
The training is 9-5 every working day. I think I'm eligible under these criteria? Any comments and suggestions welcome, thanks!
British citizen here. I'm looking to commence an 8 week training programme with a non-profit organisation in the coming month and I wanted to ask about the B-1 visa definition of "short-term training" (I'd be applying under Visa Waiver Programme for which I am eligible). I will be reimbursed for travel and expenditure, but that is strictly all.
To quote the US Gov Bureau of Consular Affairs PDF found online, they define training under B-1/VWP as:
"Training: Participating in a training program that is not designed primarily to provide employment. Will receive no payment or income from a U.S. based company/entity, other than an expense allowance or expense reimbursement related to traveler’s stay."
The training is 9-5 every working day. I think I'm eligible under these criteria? Any comments and suggestions welcome, thanks!
Feb 4th 2013, 11:07 pm
#2
American Expat
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,598
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
Hi,
British citizen here. I'm looking to commence an 8 week training programme with a non-profit organisation in the coming month and I wanted to ask about the B-1 visa definition of "short-term training" (I'd be applying under Visa Waiver Programme for which I am eligible). I will be reimbursed for travel and expenditure, but that is strictly all.
To quote the US Gov Bureau of Consular Affairs PDF found online, they define training under B-1/VWP as:
"Training: Participating in a training program that is not designed primarily to provide employment. Will receive no payment or income from a U.S. based company/entity, other than an expense allowance or expense reimbursement related to traveler’s stay."
The training is 9-5 every working day. I think I'm eligible under these criteria? Any comments and suggestions welcome, thanks!
British citizen here. I'm looking to commence an 8 week training programme with a non-profit organisation in the coming month and I wanted to ask about the B-1 visa definition of "short-term training" (I'd be applying under Visa Waiver Programme for which I am eligible). I will be reimbursed for travel and expenditure, but that is strictly all.
To quote the US Gov Bureau of Consular Affairs PDF found online, they define training under B-1/VWP as:
"Training: Participating in a training program that is not designed primarily to provide employment. Will receive no payment or income from a U.S. based company/entity, other than an expense allowance or expense reimbursement related to traveler’s stay."
The training is 9-5 every working day. I think I'm eligible under these criteria? Any comments and suggestions welcome, thanks!
Is this classroom training or on the job type training?
For example, someone can come and be trained by their company to make doughnuts in a classroom if the doughnuts are never sold to a consumer, but if they are training by making doughnuts in a store and the doughnuts are sold to a customer that would be considered unauthorized work.
Some vocational training requires an F or M visa.
Training for this non-profit cannot include you soliciting for donations or selling things within the US.
Last edited by crg; Feb 4th 2013 at 11:13 pm.
Feb 4th 2013, 11:39 pm
#3
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
Thanks CRG
I'd err more to the latter as the learning process/work is with current projects in which deliverables would be produced.
Brief Googling suggests these are student visas? I'm not currently a student nor have I been one for over 12 months so I don't think this would be applicable. EDIT: But I do have a degree
Unfortunately the organisation is not in a position to go down the route of a J-1 visa, and it seems a very involved/more costly process for both the n-p and the trainee.
I would not be remotely involved in this area as I would be training for a technical role. Cheers for the feedback though, I hadn't figured out what the ambiguous wording on 'primarily to provide employment' meant.
I'd err more to the latter as the learning process/work is with current projects in which deliverables would be produced.
Some vocational training requires an F or M visa.
Unfortunately the organisation is not in a position to go down the route of a J-1 visa, and it seems a very involved/more costly process for both the n-p and the trainee.
Training for this non-profit cannot include you soliciting for donations or selling things within the US.
Feb 5th 2013, 12:31 am
#4
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
we can play guessing games or you can tell us what you are doing.
Who is reimbursing your costs?
Who is reimbursing your costs?
Feb 5th 2013, 2:52 am
#5
Mouthy Yank
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,229
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
I'm a corporate trainer and I support project management. The way we think of it is like this:
If it's [classroom] training that takes you OFF THE JOB and you are NOT a trainer, it's generally OK. This is basically a "meeting" where you learn. I thnk of this as the "cost" sort of training.
If it's [hands-on] training that involves making or doing or developing something productively that others will use or sell, or that you will use or sell in the normal course of your work, then it's generally not permissible. I think of this as a "workshop" or "profit" sort of training.
If you are actually producing deliverables in the course of training, it is best avoided. In my classes we make heavy use of test scenarios and "sandbox" environments to avoid the appearance of doing actual hands-on work in the systems involved. Project managers have to carefully discriminate between "training" and other activities; anything that furthers some project goal other than merely "training" is work, whether expensed or capitalised.
Remember that if you do undeclared work on the VWP and some officious HR rep takes exception, the company may suffer (fines, loss of special visa privileges if it has any), but you will most certainly suffer damage to your immigration history. Don't allow your company to take advantage of you and possibly risk you being banned from the US altogether.
It almost happened to me in the UK; I was used to training for a few days to a week at a time without trouble as a "business visitor", but one day I was using a conference room some other manager thought of as "theirs" and questions were asked. I was summarily packed back to Houston by local HR and not allowed to come back until I had a work visa. It's a similar situation. I was "doing work" as a trainer, not sitting passively soaking up information to take back to do my job with.
If it's [classroom] training that takes you OFF THE JOB and you are NOT a trainer, it's generally OK. This is basically a "meeting" where you learn. I thnk of this as the "cost" sort of training.
If it's [hands-on] training that involves making or doing or developing something productively that others will use or sell, or that you will use or sell in the normal course of your work, then it's generally not permissible. I think of this as a "workshop" or "profit" sort of training.
If you are actually producing deliverables in the course of training, it is best avoided. In my classes we make heavy use of test scenarios and "sandbox" environments to avoid the appearance of doing actual hands-on work in the systems involved. Project managers have to carefully discriminate between "training" and other activities; anything that furthers some project goal other than merely "training" is work, whether expensed or capitalised.
Remember that if you do undeclared work on the VWP and some officious HR rep takes exception, the company may suffer (fines, loss of special visa privileges if it has any), but you will most certainly suffer damage to your immigration history. Don't allow your company to take advantage of you and possibly risk you being banned from the US altogether.
It almost happened to me in the UK; I was used to training for a few days to a week at a time without trouble as a "business visitor", but one day I was using a conference room some other manager thought of as "theirs" and questions were asked. I was summarily packed back to Houston by local HR and not allowed to come back until I had a work visa. It's a similar situation. I was "doing work" as a trainer, not sitting passively soaking up information to take back to do my job with.
Feb 5th 2013, 10:09 am
#6
Just Joined
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
My day-to-day would consist of on the job training in software, methods, techniques to produce the project deliverables. However, I would also actually producing an output - for example, a digital image that would be used by the n-p for whatever project requires it.
I'm certain at this point that this qualifies as work/employment, but I'm wondering what category unpaid training/work qualifies as. I think it's closer to an internship, though as I mentioned I'm not a student/haven't been for 12 months (so can't use J-1 as an intern). H-3 trainee cannot be used for productive employment so a no-go. H-1B I think would arguably be applicable except the participant needs to be remunerated with wages equivalent to other professionals in the area, so also a no-go.
A previous thread (http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=753732) sounds like a similar situation, but I don't think there was resolution with the applicable visa.
I think J-1 as a trainee would be the applicable visa. However, the non-profit is small (<25 FTE, <$3 annual turnover) and doesn't have any sort of formal arrangements for visa approval with US govt. I cannot afford a sponsor like detailed in: http://www.istplus.com/usa/choose.php which they're calling it Professional Career Training.
Yikes this is getting complicated.
I'm a corporate trainer and I support project management. The way we think of it is like this:
If it's [classroom] training that takes you OFF THE JOB and you are NOT a trainer, it's generally OK. This is basically a "meeting" where you learn. I thnk of this as the "cost" sort of training.
If it's [hands-on] training that involves making or doing or developing something productively that others will use or sell, or that you will use or sell in the normal course of your work, then it's generally not permissible. I think of this as a "workshop" or "profit" sort of training.
If you are actually producing deliverables in the course of training, it is best avoided. In my classes we make heavy use of test scenarios and "sandbox" environments to avoid the appearance of doing actual hands-on work in the systems involved. Project managers have to carefully discriminate between "training" and other activities; anything that furthers some project goal other than merely "training" is work, whether expensed or capitalised.
If it's [classroom] training that takes you OFF THE JOB and you are NOT a trainer, it's generally OK. This is basically a "meeting" where you learn. I thnk of this as the "cost" sort of training.
If it's [hands-on] training that involves making or doing or developing something productively that others will use or sell, or that you will use or sell in the normal course of your work, then it's generally not permissible. I think of this as a "workshop" or "profit" sort of training.
If you are actually producing deliverables in the course of training, it is best avoided. In my classes we make heavy use of test scenarios and "sandbox" environments to avoid the appearance of doing actual hands-on work in the systems involved. Project managers have to carefully discriminate between "training" and other activities; anything that furthers some project goal other than merely "training" is work, whether expensed or capitalised.
It almost happened to me in the UK; I was used to training for a few days to a week at a time without trouble as a "business visitor", but one day I was using a conference room some other manager thought of as "theirs" and questions were asked. I was summarily packed back to Houston by local HR and not allowed to come back until I had a work visa. It's a similar situation. I was "doing work" as a trainer, not sitting passively soaking up information to take back to do my job with.
Feb 5th 2013, 12:21 pm
#7
Account Closed
Joined: Aug 2002
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 38,865
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
Ian
Feb 5th 2013, 4:23 pm
#8
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
Or restructure what you are doing so that it fits a classification.
Feb 5th 2013, 6:58 pm
#9
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,049
Re: VWP and the "short training" criteria
I think, after reading this thread, that we amateurs are as uncertain as you are. Spend a few pounds on a consultation with a US immigration attorney to discuss the details of the program you want to participate in.
Regards, JEff
Regards, JEff
