Matthew Udall

Really?
Maybe they will do away with requiring medical licenses too, and people can start diagnosing other people’s medical problems (and recommending courses of treatment) on news groups! That would make for a better world for all, right ;-).

Edited to add a bit more: Of course, I do see a difference between someone posting occasionally about what they did in "their" case and those who take it further and make a hobby of "playing" attorney over the span of years (or doctor in my medical example above). This very group has a number of Net-Tarios that do this.

fatbrit

Think that's already there, isn't it? And the good point is that it provides enough information to know whether you're worrying about nothing or whether you need a specialist to help. I for one don't bother with a PCP (GP) any more -- it's easier just to jump to the specialist when I know I need help.

Yep -- and generally the group as a whole gives pretty good advice IMHO. How many of the regulars would you hire as a paralegal in your office?

Matthew Udall

Only ones that really were trained to do paralegal work. I'd pass on the ones who just want to "play" paralegal ;-).

As a bit of a side issue, I certainly understand that many are prejudiced against those who practice in the legal profession (just like many bigots hate other minority groups for various reasons). After all, a large area of legal practice is “adversarial” in nature where one person is trying to win an award at the expense of another individual (or perhaps against a business entity).

One thing I like about immigration law is that this does not apply to the work I do. I’m focusing my energy on helping someone achieve a benefit under the law that Congress has deemed fit to enact, not trying to sue anyone for the damages they might have caused another (and I hope to go through my entire career without having to ever sue an individual in this manner). Of course, if I did have to slap a writ of Mandamus on the CIS for some reason, I certainly wouldn’t lose sleep over that ;-).

So when I see people spewing forth with bigoted hatred against attorneys, I remind myself that while certain areas of the law might lead to this type of stereotyping, immigration attorneys (at least the ones I know) march to the beat of a different drummer.

fatbrit

Not sure I'd go as far as your comparison with bigots for the stereotyping of attorneys, but there you go! The profession is hardly one you would brag about at a party -- unless it were a gathering of used car salesmen, of course!

I think your reason for being happy as an immigration attorney could be very similar to the reason that the regular amateurs post on here: a desire to help others out combined with a feel-good factor for the ego. It's really not much different from helping at the local animal shelter or being a volunteer police officer. The difference is that you do it for a living and they do it as a hobby.

The internet has changed your profession, though. Whereas before the information you needed was sparse and required hours hanging around the library if you wanted to do it yourself, these days it all available on your screen. Therefore, it is not surprising that folks choose to bypass your profession for the easier, less complicated stuff. This particular forum seems pretty good to me at deciding when a case is straightforward and you can choose to do it yourself or where more specialist advice is required from people like yourselves. Don't mock them for it! I know that they have saved many people the expense of a lawyer in simple cases and allowed newcomers to the process to be much better informed than they would otherwise have been. This is a good thing! The legal profession can no longer hide behind the smoke screen of greater godlikeness they have nurtured over many years. It's evolve or die, bit like the dinosaurs if you like.

Matthew Udall

Bigot ;-) ;-) (I hope I’m using enough smileys here)

There is also the difference that in order to practice law, usually one is required to receive extensive training in many areas of the law, go through a background check, pass an exam concerning ethical duties, pass a state’s bar exam, and most attorneys I know carry insurance to at least provide a monetary remedy to a client if the attorney hurts the client in a financial way. Another difference is that an attorney owes many duties not only to the client, but also to the tribunal as well (duty of honesty is one example). An attorney can lose his or her license to engage in this high stakes activity, but not so for someone “playing” attorney.

But I do agree that the area of immigration law is certainly a “feel-good” area of the law in which to practice. There is nothing preventing a regular here from getting a license themselves and doing this work legitimately.

Yes, the net is a wonderful thing and many of the tips I see recycled in groups like this came form attorneys who shared that information. Plus, hanging around a library is not what I’d call preparation to do this work. I actually get some of the best information that I have (and share) from spending the resources to actually fly across the U.S. to visit the Service Centers to actually see what goes on there. And AILA usually supplies these reports (not quite a good as being there, but pretty good substitute) to all of the AILA membership (for those who could not attend in person).

No one is saying one has to be an attorney in order to look for information. Rendering advice to others however is not the same thing as looking for answers for your own case (and again, I personally draw a distinction between those who post about what happened to them and those who render legal advice to others over the span of years).

Yes, I like to see accurate information available to people.

Bigot ;-) ;-) (I hope I’m using enough smileys here). I like your comment about evolving though, and as we have seen over the years when new technologies come into existence, the law is always playing catch up to the ramifications of new technology (thinking of Net-Tarios here). I can also accept the fact that many non-attorneys might feel a bit differently about this UPL issue than I.

ian-mstm

I have been following this exchange with interest. As one of the latter, what would you have us do? Would you prefer that we preface each comment with a disclaimer? This is, after all, a public newsgroup... and while many of the questions relate to simple issues, I don't believe that even anything I say is likely to be construed as legal advice.

Ian

bionomique

Next time my Aunt Fanny tells me to take an aspirin and have a lie down, after a night of too much pub crawling, I think I'm going to have to ask to see her credentials The nerve! And she has the gall to do her non-practicing on me, family!!!!!!!!!

fatbrit

Hi Matt!

You’re fine! You have to have a thick skin to post against the clique in here anyway, and I have already had my initiation ceremony on that one! Please feel free to insert smileys mentally in my own posts if you find it necessary. I tend not to be a smiley person, preferring to hit the exclamation mark instead!!!


Do you think it’s really necessary to have all that broad education? For a medical analogy, they now have nurse practitioners rather than full medical doctors for the initial sifting of complaints. I once caused consternation in certain circles by explaining to a group of traditional Austro-Hungarian doctors who I was teaching at the time that if I were to have a heart attack, I’d much rather be saved by a paramedic than one of them because they probably hadn’t actually done the procedure for 20 years whereas the paramedic did it a dozen times a day and actually knew what he was doing.
You have a license and that holds you to a higher standard. But it also means you can charge significant sums for your service. The questioner should be able to differentiate between free newsgroup advice and paid-for legal advice from a professional. And if they do not have that capability, there isn’t much hope for them anyway. I would say it is within the abilities of the happy Clapham omnibus rider.

But perhaps they choose not to. Just because I enjoy going to help out at the animal shelter as a hobby doesn’t mean I need to become a vet or go and get a degree in animal shelter management!


But here’s the problem. The newsgroup would not be the wealth of information it is were laypeople only allowed to post experiences and attorneys advice.
First of all, there are far fewer attorneys posting than laypeople. Hence you are subject to the biases and prejudices of the attorneys themselves. Consider, for example, a practicing and devout Catholic doctor who is approached by a 15-year-old girl for contraceptive advice. Is the young girl going to get unbiased advice here? In addition, there are the collective prejudices of the profession itself. The barge pole question would spring to mind as a rather good example here.
Newsgroups on legal matters like you are presumably advocating for do indeed exist. I find they offer less and much more cautious advice. If I wish to find about a subject, the ideal newsgroup to find is one with plenty of posters and a mix of professionals, semi-professionals and laypeople. It’s not difficult to sort out the wheat from the chaff, and readers are not stupid. They will attach weight to posters’ advice and opinions and draw their own conclusions, which frighteningly enough can even be at odds with the attorneys’ viewpoint. All this, IMO, is a very healthy way of understanding and tackling a legal issue.

ArrogantU2Fan

This thread just won't go away lmao.....I just feel like (and I am not willing to name my occupation) that any time you deal with the court system, government etc. it is ALWAYS best to have a evaluation with a attorney...if you retain him or not is up to you.....but they do know things that no matter how much we read immigration or whatever laws do know things we do not....for instance maybe there is a exclusion to the WVP how would one know without consulting a good immigration attorney...I certainly wouldn't just accept it from a forumn....or trust what i read in the laws Susan

nettlebed

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers"
Henry VI Part II, Act IV, Scene II
William Shakspeare

Matthew Udall

Actually, I believe the CFR contains a regulation where is carves out one (of a few) exceptions about who can render legal services, and I believe one is for someone like in your example above, where a family member or someone with a certain sort of relationship can help with the legal matters. I’m just paraphrasing so I could be a bit off. This is not too difficult to find if you want to search the code of federal regulations (that is, if you are really curious about this).

But if you want to rattle your Aunt's cage, be my guest (and I have to commend you on being a normal person.... without fail, whenever the UPL subject comes up, somebody comes up with the exact same example that you gave ;-).

Matthew Udall

Thanks. I know this is not a popular subject.

I'll bet nurse practitioners receive extensive training, go through a certification process, are regulated, and can be disciplined of they hurt someone.

Most immigration attorneys I know don’t make that much money. That’s the trade off for practicing in a feel good area of the law. Also, family based immigration attorneys are not like business immigration or corporate attorneys (or like in other areas of the law). Once the case is done, its done and the client is not in a lifetime relationship with the attorney and will not be using their services throughout their life. And besides, there is nothing wrong with working to earn a living for one’s family, even if the sum is not that great.

But that is not what happens (they take the advice regardless of the source... after all they came looking for advice). Ask JEff about this (sorry JEff, but I always remember your example and please forgive me for mentioning it when providing an example). I also see non-attorneys who don’t practice immigration law mischaracterize what it is that an attorney can bring to someone’s case (which is understandable; how would “they” know what an attorney brings to a case), and they “always” seem to leave out the follow up an attorney of record can do with the USCIS or Consulate when they screw-up somewhere along the line with someone’s case. I sometimes wonder if those who blatently discourage others from seeking legal advice (but you obviously do have legal questions so let “us” provide that legal advice to you ;-) are motivated more by their bigoted hatred of a minority group (attorneys) than their really feeling that way after first digging through the facts of a posters problem in order to reach that conclusion.

And are you suggesting that only paid-for advice is good advice? I see attorneys rendering good advice all the time and they don't change a penny for it.

I’ll bet there are some jobs at the animal shelter that require someone performing those tasks to be a licensed vet, while there are other jobs that would not require this. So do you give animals medicine and tend to their medical needs, or are you cleaning up the cages and playing with the animals (to give them some companionship)?

CaliforniaBride

Are you saying any attorney can get the reports? If so how do they go about doing that?

Matthew Udall

If an attorney is a member of AILA, they should have access to all of the reports, and that attorney will know (or should know) how to find them. If not a member of AILA, well maybe they should consider joining (if they want to practice immigration law).

Noorah101

I'm interested in the answer to Ian's question as well...."what would you have us do?"

I suppose I could *only* post on the items that I personally have accomplished and only share my own experience, and not comment on other posts which I know the answer to but have not personally experienced....but that doesn't seem in the spirit of helping others.

Plus, since my experience was 2 years ago, things have changed. I could say "well, my experience was this, but it's something different now and I really shouldn't comment on it, for fear of guiding you wrong?" That also doesn't seem very helpful.

The one time I did immediately did recommend that a poster seek legal assisance, without answering any question, everyone jumped all over me for being unhelpful. LOL

Rene