fatbrit

The OP’s a total prat, which is a pity as he could have a serious point to make. I do so wish these government departments could be kicked into some semblance of reasonable efficiency. I mean 1 year and $210 to produce a copy of a lost document! WTF! Why does it take so long? I’d venture that a reasonable wait would be 30 days and a reasonable price would be $30. It’s got to the stage where third-world banana republics could teach the US a thing or two on getting a quality job done for a reasonable cost!

Ritze

"fatbrit" <member24289@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    >> I lost my certificate of citizenship in August, 2003 while searching
    >> for employment, along with my passport and social security card. I
    >> was
    >> finally able to afford the $210 N-565 replacement fee in July, 2004.
    >> The N-565 replacement time, I was notified, is 360 days. I sent an
    >> expedited request but was ignored. I spoke to an immigration official
    >> but she gave me circuitous answers.
    >> The consequences for this unreasonable processing time (for a
    >> naturalized citizen) have been negative and severe. I cannot find
    >> work, I had to move back with my parents, and in New Jersey, I can't
    >> get a driver's license or insurance. I cannot go to school or get
    >> financial aid, or replace my social security card. If I want to visit
    >> my aging relatives, I can't because I cannot get a passport. I
    >> consulted some attorneys and they said that there's nothing I can do
    >> short of a lawsuit, and then that is not certain.
    >> So I propose this:
    >> If at least 5 people respond to this message saying they have been
    >> affected similarly, I will consult an attorney to begin a class-action
    >> lawsuit against the Department of Homeland Security (INS). The suit
    >> will address the processing time and any damages incurred as a result.
    >> One year is an unreasonable, ridiculous time for a citizen of the US
    >> to
    >> get proof of citizenship. Every citizen should have the rights
    >> citizens have, and should have due process in regards to such
    >> important
    >> and basic paperwork.
    > The OP’s a total prat, which is a pity as he could have a serious point
    > to make. I do so wish these government departments could be kicked into
    > some semblance of reasonable efficiency. I mean 1 year and $210 to
    > produce a copy of a lost document! WTF! Why does it take so long? I’d
    > venture that a reasonable wait would be 30 days and a reasonable price
    > would be $30. It’s got to the stage where third-world banana republics
    > could teach the US a thing or two on getting a quality job done for a
    > reasonable cost!
    > --
The price is set by Congress in the law books. If it were up to me I would
increase it a lot more, at least $2500, and even more difficult to replace!
That would make people appreciate that piece of paper and perhaphs take good
care of it a little better knowing its a vital document proving their US
citizenship.
You guys probably don't have any idea how that Certificate of Citizenship is
rampantly being abused in the border countries, being sold or "stolen" and
fradulently presented by impostors and undesirables to gain entry into the
US.
When you make it too easy to acquire or replaced , it would make it less
significant but it would be very tempting to try to profit with it
illegally!

Furthermore, Banana Republics are what they are because of the way they
operate! Ever though that perhaphs their leniency and negligence with vital
documents, among other things, contributed to how they are labeled as such?

crg

I agree. US citizenship documents are traded on the black market and if the documents were easy to replace then there would be no deterrant to selling them like hotcakes and just filing for a replacement.

The flood of fraudulent applications also cause a delay. People need to safeguard their documents.

fatbrit

Gentlemen, you’ll have to stop tuning in to the spin from Fox News – the delusions are getting too much! Are you really suggesting to me that a good form of immigration control is to allow bloated bureaucratic departments to continue in their sloppy ways?

If you wish to control immigration, the laws are already in place. That is I believe way they are referred to as *illegal* immigrants. There is no problem controlling it with current legislation – it is already in place: if there was actually a will on the part of the authorities, they could all be gone tomorrow. However, the current reality is that there is no such will, and without this volition you can pass as many laws and bureaucratic hurdles as you wish but it won’t make one iota of difference to the problem. Indeed, the converse is true – it will create great hardship for citizens and legal immigrants.

Instead, you wish to support the inefficiencies of the system. Replacing a lost document should be a simple, everyday procedure: think library card, credit card, driver license. Imagine, god forbid, the horror of your domestic partner accidentally running your Amex card through the washing machine. You find it will take the centurion 12 months to replace it and they want to charge you $210! It’s freakin’ ludicrous. And if you don’t see it, I can only assume you blend well with the 52% other voting idiots.

Unfortunately, this same warped sense of reality is now starting to permeate all society in the US. It is fast becoming a society where to question is to dissent, to be unpatriotic, to be un-American. For example, to counteract a fiendish group of well-organized and intelligent foes, the government in their wisdom has placed yesterday’s burger flippers in uniforms and instructed them to confiscate manicure scissors from elderly citizens. Does anyone believe this crap is making the US safer? Yet the sheep continue to follow their born-again leader.

I’m sorry but banana republic was probably too good a comparison. I withdraw it…

Jarrun79

Well as soon as I do get a certificate, I will update my SS status (all
this was done through my parents so it wasn't updated), get a new ss
card, a new passport, a keep the certificate in a bank vault.
I also have researched this a little, and found out there already is a
class-action lawsuit for a similar situation - denial of proof of
status to resident aliens that could take 5 years. Search for
class-action lawsuits on Google.
Anyway - the issue is not as urgent for me. I know somebody from DMV -
and they gave me a Driver's License despite not having the appropriate
documents - YES!!! - finally less anxiety. Through a stroke of fortune
- the judge didn't even charge me as accused - only with failure to
present insurance documents - in NEW JERSEY!
Also - the I-9 laws aren't enforced that heavily anyway - I think there
were 26 conviction for illegal aliens employed in the US for 2003
alone.
All I want to do is make a positive difference in the community I live
in. I have volunteered for food pantries for the homeless, in
hospitals, and have gone on several trips out-of-country trips for
similar efforts. I was an honors student in high school and in the
highest ability level for the gifted/talented classes in elementary
school.
I value my citizenship and think this is a great country to live in. I
didn't think I would wind up in this type of mess - I guess I wanted to
let my employers know - I am who I say I am - nor did I know which
documents were needed.
Call me what you want. I think the solutions to some of the problems
you presented, such as illegal document trading - come with stricter
enforcements of the policies we have. Also great technology exists
nowadays. What about having a systme like the vehicle agencies across
the states now have?
I would have gladly paid more to get expedited service for a
replacement certificate.
It's just that my ss card was never updated - and it's very easy to get
a duplicate card for that... I didn't know - I didn't read through
what to do in case you lose a document parts because I thought I never
would.
okay final words - there are more creative solutions than punishing
those who are legally here. I only wish I could have used my own
resources to pay for housing, food, healthcare, etc. , but there was
really nothing I could do short of dying or going to jail.
Good news - is I'm going to start a 3rd job soon - I'm getting a lot of
support from my parents - and I should have more than enough financial
resources by the end of one year to accomplish my goals - which is get
a masters in Business Administration.

fatbrit wrote:
    > > I agree. US citizenship documents are traded on the black market
and
    > > if the documents were easy to replace then there would be no
deterrant
    > > to selling them like hotcakes and just filing for a replacement.
    > >
    > > The flood of fraudulent applications also cause a delay. People
need
    > > to safeguard their documents.
    > Gentlemen, you'll have to stop tuning in to the spin from Fox News
- the
    > delusions are getting too much! Are you really suggesting to me that
a
    > good form of immigration control is to allow bloated bureaucratic
    > departments to continue in their sloppy ways?
    > If you wish to control immigration, the laws are already in place.
That
    > is I believe way they are referred to as *illegal* immigrants. There
is
    > no problem controlling it with current legislation - it is already
in
    > place: if there was actually a will on the part of the authorities,
they
    > could all be gone tomorrow. However, the current reality is that
there
    > is no such will, and without this volition you can pass as many laws
and
    > bureaucratic hurdles as you wish but it won't make one iota of
    > difference to the problem. Indeed, the converse is true - it will
create
    > great hardship for citizens and legal immigrants.
    > Instead, you wish to support the inefficiencies of the system.
Replacing
    > a lost document should be a simple, everyday procedure: think library
    > card, credit card, driver license. Imagine, god forbid, the horror of
    > your domestic partner accidentally running your Amex card through the
    > washing machine. You find it will take the centurion 12 months to
    > replace it and they want to charge you $210! It's freakin'
ludicrous.
    > And if you don't see it, I can only assume you blend well with the
52%
    > other voting idiots.
    > Unfortunately, this same warped sense of reality is now starting to
    > permeate all society in the US. It is fast becoming a society where
to
    > question is to dissent, to be unpatriotic, to be un-American. For
    > example, to counteract a fiendish group of well-organized and
    > intelligent foes, the government in their wisdom has placed
yesterday's
    > burger flippers in uniforms and instructed them to confiscate
manicure
    > scissors from elderly citizens. Does anyone believe this crap is
making
    > the US safer? Yet the sheep continue to follow their born-again
leader.
    > I'm sorry but banana republic was probably too good a comparison. I
    > withdraw it...
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Jarrun79

Guess what - The INS MAILS out the certificates. My aunt never
received hers and the INS says they sent it out - so it was lost in the
mail. Guess what - she has to pay the new filing fee, wait for a year,
and apply for the replacement. Obviously, the INS doesn't think that
the certificate is important enough - and just mails them out through
the post office.
Sen. Jon Corzine's office contacted me yesterday and will assist me
with the issue; I was surprised they responded.

More points:

1.Even if I wanted to go back to my native country, I couldn't because
I can't even get a passport.
2.A natural born citizen's solution to losing all the documents would
be, go to the ss office and get a new card - everyone born outside
needs a document that proves status - nobody born in the US does.
3.People lose credit cards with $10,000 lines of credit frequently -
it's not necessarily negligence. And the banks will work instantly to
try to get a replacement. Why? Because they will lose money in the
end, too, if it is not replaced quickly. Things like this happen - I
had already lived in 4 different places in a 6 month period and it was
very difficult keeping track of everything. Do you think I didn't
value my right to work? Do you think I didn't value my right to travel
or to go to school? Of course I did! Also, ironically, I had just
re-arranged the documents a week before I lost them so that I wouldn't
lose them as easily.

4.If I can't be allowed to work or leave the country, I will be forced
to use other people's resources to survive. And I already have --
above $15,000 and counting which I would have gladly worked for.
5.My main concern and the solution I wish for now is simply getting the
replacement or duplicate licenses - not pursuing any lawsuit. There's
already a class-action lawsuit similar to this problem and I can't find
people, because I can't market the question, in a similar situation.
6.The solution to the black market and illegal alien problem is not in
punishing people like me. Solutions like the enhanced social secuirty
card project are more creative and novel.
7.Making ad-hominem attacks against me has nothing to do with anything
and only reveals the patterns of thoughts used to argue against me.

Ritze

"Jarrun79" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > Guess what - The INS MAILS out the certificates. My aunt never
    > received hers and the INS says they sent it out - so it was lost in the
    > mail. Guess what - she has to pay the new filing fee, wait for a year,
    > and apply for the replacement. Obviously, the INS doesn't think that
    > the certificate is important enough - and just mails them out through
    > the post office.
    > Sen. Jon Corzine's office contacted me yesterday and will assist me
    > with the issue; I was surprised they responded.
    > More points:
    > 1.Even if I wanted to go back to my native country, I couldn't because
    > I can't even get a passport.
    > 2.A natural born citizen's solution to losing all the documents would
    > be, go to the ss office and get a new card - everyone born outside
    > needs a document that proves status - nobody born in the US does.
    > 3.People lose credit cards with $10,000 lines of credit frequently -
    > it's not necessarily negligence. And the banks will work instantly to
    > try to get a replacement. Why? Because they will lose money in the
    > end, too, if it is not replaced quickly. Things like this happen - I
    > had already lived in 4 different places in a 6 month period and it was
    > very difficult keeping track of everything. Do you think I didn't
    > value my right to work? Do you think I didn't value my right to travel
    > or to go to school? Of course I did! Also, ironically, I had just
    > re-arranged the documents a week before I lost them so that I wouldn't
    > lose them as easily.
    > 4.If I can't be allowed to work or leave the country, I will be forced
    > to use other people's resources to survive. And I already have --
    > above $15,000 and counting which I would have gladly worked for.
    > 5.My main concern and the solution I wish for now is simply getting the
    > replacement or duplicate licenses - not pursuing any lawsuit. There's
    > already a class-action lawsuit similar to this problem and I can't find
    > people, because I can't market the question, in a similar situation.
    > 6.The solution to the black market and illegal alien problem is not in
    > punishing people like me. Solutions like the enhanced social secuirty
    > card project are more creative and novel.
    > 7.Making ad-hominem attacks against me has nothing to do with anything
    > and only reveals the patterns of thoughts used to argue against me.

You don't want others to expect you to do things perfectly and efficiently
yet you expect others to be flawless and efficient?
Think! You are not totally blameless yourself and you have to live with the
system which is run by imperfect and inefficient people just like YOU.

Jarrun79

Yes.. but the inefficiency of the INS makes much more difference to our
security, economy, and countless individuals than my own flaws do. Of
course I know the INS has its own flaws, and I don't expect government
departments to be flawless. But shouldn't there be a method to redress
the mistakes once they do occur?
And do I really need to go to a Senator to get assistance to this
issue?
You're right I won't sue - not because I don't have the persistance -
but because I'm finally getting assistance - which is the only thing I
wanted.
I believe many who read my initial post became defensive when I said I
wanted to file a lawsuit. I didn't mean it as an attack; just as a way
to address what I had lost, practically, which was my freedom, and of
which I had all the right to.
Anyway I shouldn't have felt like I needed to justify myself or my
actions either - and play into any attacks. That wasn't the purpose of
my original post - and can frankly become boring. Nor was I trying to
encourage a political discussion (which is more relevant to everyone
than my own life).
But now that it has become that...
My opinion is, if I'm illegal, can I at least get paperwork to that
effect and not have to wait a whole year, so I can get a passport to
leave the country? If I'm legal can I at least get a temporary
certificate so that I can show prospective employers? And all the INS
can say is, "wait."
Is that inefficiency to such an important department in our country
beneficial to our security, economy, and countless individuals?

franc111s

I managed to get my driving licence for my Son without any proof he was here legally.

What happened was his I-551 had expired and the DMV said they would not give him a licence. I called one of the 6 Directors of the DMV in Georgia. A fantastic secretary to one of the guys was so helpful and got the Director to call me back.

I told him my story which was, if my son was illegal then they should deport him. If he was legal then he should be given a driving licence. AN expired I-551 stamp does not mean you are illegal. Long story short, the director called BCIS (he said he has a direct line and confirm my son was legal. He did and then called the manager at the local DMV to authorize my son to be given a Licence.

It just goes to show, persistents pays and there are some people in Government whom are a pleasure to deal with.

I am still awaiting my sons "Certificates of Citizenship". They keep sending appointment dates but I refuse to take my kids out of school (one has terrible grades already !!). I didn't need certificates to get them their passports which is good enough for them to be citizens. In fact, I have spoken to some BCIS people who said that the N-565 replacement "thing" and passports will be changing - for the better....