Giantaxe

They pay sales taxes. They create demand in the economy. They often subsidize Social Security and Medicare. Sure there are costs, but it's not as one-sided as you suggest.

Do you have something to back up this assertion?

Uncle_Bob

They create minimal demand and cost more than they contribute.

In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.


http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigr...caillegals.htm

Giantaxe

I see plenty about the costs of illegal immigrants, but nothing in there about the flip side of the equation.

Uncle_Bob

If you think the flip side outweighs the costs maybe you could find something to quantify the flip side of the equation and justify the cost?

At the end of the day if illegal immigrants were so beneficial then they wouldn't be illegal would they, they would be welcomed by the immigration system that America already has.

We need to stop illegal immigration and figure out a sensible and humane way of dealing with those already here.

Giantaxe

A number of cost-benefit studies linked in here. Not a bad discussion of costs and benefits earlier on on the page too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...nefit_analysis

You are assuming that immigration policy is economically rational. It clearly isn't. Just look at the low numbers of visas issued per year fro skilled applicants, for example. Illegal immigrants are often little more than a convenient scapegoat for economic woes.

I pretty much agree on this.

Uncle_Bob

I don't value Wikipedia as a credible source as do most American universities. But your source also claims "Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes". An economic woe? Not as one sided as I think? Mmm

Yes I'm assuming immigration policy is somewhat rational, an assumption based on more than just visas issued. Are you suggesting America does not need an immigration policy and an open door policy or ignoring illegals is economically rational?

claiming that illegal immigrants are convenient scapegoats for economic woes? That's a diversion and poor attempt to simply sweep a problem under the rug. As I have said they are not the sole blame but they contribute towards the woes.

Giantaxe

That's why I specifically pointed to references in the wikipedia article.

As for your quote, it's odd that you missed out this:

Maybe not exactly a neutral observer...

No, I'm suggesting that its currently immigration policies are irrational. They frequently discourage migrants who have the skills that would benefit the country and they largely turn a blind eye to illegal labour that many US companies rely on. Etc etc.

I hear it all the time. "Immigrants are taking our jobs away".

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/jus...ed-immigration

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...r-unemployment

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/f...tember2010.pdf

scrubbedexpat099

They are certainly having an impact of those earning lower wages.

scrubbedexpat099

Good for a laugh.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/politi...der-fence.html

NOGALES, Ariz. -- The top Democratic and Republican Senate negotiators on forthcoming immigration-reform legislation toured the Arizona-Mexico border on Wednesday, watching as U.S. authorities apprehended a woman who had scaled a border fence and reiterating their commitment to strengthening security along the international line.

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., are leading the ongoing bipartisan “Gang of Eight” talks that many hope will result in the introduction of a sweeping bill when the Senate returns to session after a two-week Easter break.

The two veteran lawmakers were joined on the tour, which included a helicopter ride, by two other Gang of Eight members: Sens. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., and Michael Bennet, D-Colo. The senators have been struggling to come to terms on big issues such as the future flow of foreign workers into the country, but the message from the quartet in southern Arizona was that the bill is moving forward.

Schumer, who is chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee’s immigration subcommittee, was making his first visit to the border and said his observations will make it easier for him to persuade colleagues about the need for additional border measures.

“What I learned today is we have adequate manpower but not adequate technology,” Schumer said at a noon news conference. “And John has been saying that all along.”

At one point during the border tour, the senators witnessed a woman scaling an 18-foot fence a few yards from the entourage. McCain tweeted about the incident, telling his Twitter audience that the Border Patrol took the woman into custody.

sir_eccles

The cynic in me suggests that was rather convenient (and a poor choice of climbing location). Now the question is whether she was a local actor or was it some Mexican actor taking the job of a local actor?

KCK_DR

The immigration issue has never been a financial/economic issue, it has always been a racial issue. In the 19th Century we attacked the Irish as vermin and up till recently we saw Asians as subhuman. In the 1920s and 1930s we debated whether the Philippines should be incorporated to the United States as a territory and we said NO they are racially different.

I am against illegal immigration, I agree with you. My disagreement with you is based on your deeply held belief that this is a financial issue. Based on your statement:

The problem is “catholic families.” Right? I am surprised you did not say “Muslim” families.

CA is not bankrupt, CA is the 8th largest economy in the world, Arizona just sells homes and cheep services to old people from Chicago, Indiana and Ohio. That is the same area of our country where the KKK has the strongest presence, in fact I believe that the current Grand Dragon was born and lives in Indiana.

Phoenix – where I lived for the past five years – was the fifth largest city in the country until Russell solved that little problem to make it the sixth one. As for old and young it is all relative.

For a 20 year old a 40 something is old, for an 80 year old a 55 year old is a youngster.

Uncle_Bob

No, i'm saying the Mexican immigrants tend to be catholic with large familes.
I'm calling a spade a spade. I have not heard of any issues with illegal immigrants that tend to be of a Muslim faith so I'm surprised you're surprised.

There are plenty of legal catholic and morman familes that pay their way and are not a drain on welfare and other social programs.

KCK_DR

So are you saying the problem is illegal immigration from Mexico and not from Europe or Asia?
It is my understanding that more than half the illegal immigrants are not from Latin America, in fact they came here with visitor visas or on the VWP and overstayed. They did not jump the fence.
I will also call a spade a spade, only until recently Irish, Italian, Polish and Austrian Americans were treated badly because they were Catholic with big families.
I agree with you, people need to pay their way in life, so no more subsidies for Walmart and small mom and pap businesses. The services you pay are undervalued because my taxes subsidize your shopping and your food. If an employer is caught employing an illegal – I believe – they should be charged with a felony and put in prison for 5 years and their property is confiscated to the last dollar also if one of their employees has not enough to live on then the government charges them for their food and healthcare.
As for the who pays for whom right now it works as such: You paid for someone else, I am paying for you now, my children will pay for me later.
No more socialist programs like Medicare or Social Security. If you paid before and are receiving now – too bad you are out of your money. Go get a job, I don’t care if you can or not. It that what you are saying?

Giantaxe

Fertility rate is 2.4 for US hispanics as compared to 1.9 overall. Sure, it's higher, but 2.4 children is hardly a large family.

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Data...opulation.aspx

Mexico's fertility rate is actually even lower - 2.1.

Bob

The fix is very easy.

Fine each employer a million bucks for each illegal employee and the problem goes away over night.

Then you'd probably end up with $3 a tomato and a $10 big mac.