fortress

Hello all,
Warning - this is a long read! Apologies as I needed to add some context.

The last time I posted here was when we made a long trip to the US in April 2017 and I wanted to know if we will have issue at POA due to my daughter having F1. We didn't have any issue as I reported to the forum in my feedback. My wife and I made that trip using ESTA while our daughter used F1 (not ESTA) as it was during school term. She attended a US private school for about 6 weeks. Our son is USC so he used his US Passport. In all we spent 77 days in the US and came back to the UK.

Our daughter loved the school and we felt since still primary school age to continue study in the US then come back to UK for her secondary sch starting 2019. Since she has 5 years on her F1 we felt my wife would take her back finish the next term then they come back to the UK. Then we made 2 mistakes which is where I need your advise on the way forward. My wife decided to apply for M1 visa so she cld take a college course while staying with our daughter, the rationale was the 90 days ESTA will not be sufficient and she doesn't want to be bored and just doing school runs. The visa was refused on 214(b) - there was lots of money in account, we have houses in the UK, I have a thriving business here and not travelling with them. The documents were not even looked at. The second mistake was then to apply for a B2 visa 2 weeks after which was also refused under the same 214b. she noted that the consular officer was very rude and saying she intended to 'run away with her USC son'. I didn't know having a 5 year old USC could allow you 'run away to the US'. So after that incidence we decided the US was not for us. I even researched into E2, L1 options but gave up the whole research due to the issues mentioned above as I didn't want any application that will affect our ESTA status. We also spoke to a US based attorney after the incidence, he offered to do another B2 application for my wife and 'make a strong case' if we paid him $1500. He advised that our son shouldn't travel with them and just my daughter going to school. On speaking with our US friends, we were told there was no guarantee so no need to bother...just wait for a while before attempting to travel.

I have since travelled to the US several times since then for conferences - I've had no issue entering the US. I thought it would be an issue since we always travel together most times - at least once a year for 2 weeks until 'the 77 days adventure'.

Fast forward to February 2019 - more than 18 months after the whole incidence, my wife applied for ESTA and travel was not authorised. We had promised our daughter a trip to Disney if she passes her grammar school exams which she did so it was going to be one of those 10 days trip we used to do. Then my wife applied to B1B2 since ESTA wasn't approved and she was given the same 214b. She works for the govt, got letter from employer and all the usual documents but again they were not looked at.

What would you advise? Do we need an attorney to write the Consular and check what they have on file for her? Or will 'time sort it'? I doubt that because she has waited 18 months or should it have been longer? so many questions!

Thanks for reading!

civilservant

There is nothing you can do. Repeated applications make some look desperate to get to the US, which doesn't exactly endear you to the Officer interviewing. I would give it at least 24 months before even thinking about another ESTA application now.

An Officer is not required to review any documentation that you bring to a B2 interview, and if they do review it, they are not required to consider it in their decision.

Does she has any other issues beyond the multiple applications? Criminal history?

In the meantime - France has a Disney too.

materialcontroller

My advice would be for your wife to forget about the USA for at least the next 2 - 3 years and possibly longer (the longer, the better to be honest). I doubt very much that an immigration attorney will be able to help much in this case.

fortress

No issues. No criminal history. She has visited several times until this issue happened in 2017.
Your advise is consistent with what we've been told only that it seem time is not necessarily a guarantee - 2,3,5 years gap? I wonder if the US Embassy has ever explained how they define 214b because the current definitions we have seen doesn't seem to apply to us as we have no intent to immigrate and we have more than sufficient ties - work, houses, family.

civilservant

I agree that this is all pie in the sky maybes, at this point with her immigration history longer is better, but there are zero guarantees.

214b is basically a catch all to deny anyone they don't feel good about. They don't define it expressly because they want the Officer to have as much latitude to do their job as possible - which is to keep non-USCs out of the US.

Pulaski

Applying for a visa immediately after being rejected for an ESTA or a different type of visa is pretty much always a terrible idea and is going to result in a second rejection. As already advised, you just end up looking desperate, and that sends a clear message to the USCIS - you need to be kept out of the US. So that is what USCIS invariably does, reliably and entirely predictably.

Oh, and I firmly believe that in almost all cases the decision to approve or reject a visa application is already taken before the interview, in fact before the interview is even scheduled. Your wife's experience with taking documents taken to the interview is consistent with every other case I have ever read or heard of regarding documents taken to the interview - little or no attention is given to them.

I am very doubtful that a lawyer will be able get your wife a different outcome, but I know that sometimes lawyers are able to communicate with visa processing teams through channels not open to the public, so if you have the money to burn you can see if a lawyer can get you different outcome. I really don't think a lawyer will make a difference, but I would be very interested to hear your experience if you hire lawyer, whether or not the lawyer is able to get your wife a visa.

scrubbedexpat099

According to your previous thread you were looking to move to the US.

I agree with the obvious solution, Disney Paris.

There is a back door route for Lawyers on Immigrant/Work type visas, but not to my knowledge visitor visas.

I am sure that the Lawyer would take your money, produce some documents which will also not be looked at, they interview people not documents, the document they need is the application, well there can be unusual specific cases, this not being one.

fortress

Agree. Disney Paris it is!

Yes you are right. I once looked at options of moving there for work but didn't proceed with the idea. It was all desk research and forum questions. A friend however did say that the US consular may reply to lawyers if I take on a lawyer to investigate why she was refused. He said they will typically say there is not right of appeal and the only option is to apply again if I feel I can overcome the 214b. The friend then said that because of the communication with the lawyers, most often than not when you go for an interview at a later time, the embassy will then issue you with a visa (assuming all is right with your record). I really don't have $1500 to burn to try that option.

As per the B1B2 application, I still wonder how they get all the information they need without looking at additional documents as the form looks so bare to me. Besides the form was filled correctly with all the information requested - address in US, work, salary, why you were refused previously etc. I think the best is ESTA anyways as the visa process is just too onerous for British Citizens with most people getting refused even people who genuinely want to travel US, Canada & the Caribbean for a period more than 90 days. I have African friends who get B1B2 easily in their home countries. It even gets better when their visa expires, if its same category they don't even need to attend interview an interview or send any document. They use what they call a 'drop box', just drop your passport and D-160 confirmation with the courier company and they will deliver passport with visa to you in 5 days. They don't even qualify for ESTA/VWP but visas seem easier for them. Pls pardon my rant!

fortress

I will let the forum know if I know of any verifiable story that goes this route of lawyer as its very unlikely I opt to 'burn' $1500.

scrubbedexpat099

They told you why they refused the visa, 214b. I do not recollect anybody ever having a reply to a Lawyer, occasionally you see when somebody gets upset and get their Congressperson to enquire, 214b.

Then there is the magic document that proves all, employment information is part of the application from memory.

It is much harder for most to get a B in an African Country, I remember reading a similar story about a Nigerian complaining about documents not being looked at and another person who was Nigerian mentioned that there are places near the Consulate that will supply pretty much any document you want.

Finally you keep on focusing about you, it was her application.

discoviking

That's the key point right there. People who are eligible for VWP are often not given B1/B2 visas, because presumably 90 days are thought to be enough time for a normal visit. People from countries not eligible for the VWP have no option other than apply for a B1/B2 in order to visit, so it will not raise a red flag if they apply for one.

fortress

I'm back to this topic again and just wanted to ask if anyone here on BE or anyone people here know of that has experienced similar situation (denied ESTA and B2 two years apart) and if they later got either ESTA or B2 and how long it took? Over the last few months I've read different people saying wait 2,3,4,5 years etc but would be good to know if anyone has actually gotten the visa or ESTA after not approved and how long it took.

To summarise the history
Wife denied B2 visa in Aug 2017 - 'rookie mistake'
Applied for ESTA Feb 2019 and 'Not Approved'

Thanks.

shiversaint

She's actually got three visa refusals though, hasn't she?

M-1 denied then B-2 immediately, also denied, ESTA 18ish months later, denied, B-2 immediately after, also denied.

I think really the B-2 straight after the M-1 refusal was probably the nail in the coffin here. That smacks of desperation because of the really quite different uses of those visas which as already mentioned is not good. She's then doubled down by doing another B-2 straight after an ESTA refusal, which will have reset whatever "timer" is going on in the background.

Cases like this come up occasionally, and the answers those people get are pretty much the same as you've got so far. I think the record of refusals your wife has is probably one of the worst I've seen in my short time on the board. We rarely if ever see people come back after experiencing this to then tell us they managed to succeed - not because it doesn't happen but almost certainly because people in this situation just move on with their lives and forget about going. Many moons later they may get a new reason to goto the U.S. and end up pleasantly surprised.

I think it's definitely several years in your case. I'd be amazed if she gets through in the next 2 years and would recommend waiting 5. Although she may get through earlier, another refusal is going to make it even worse.

scrubbedexpat099

I think 2 denied B applications.

fortress

Thanks. Even if ESTA granted in 2/5 years, I can't imagine the scrutiny with CBP officer at point of entry. She will have to make do with Europe and Canada for the foreseeable future then.