helenab

Unfortunately NOTHING in US immigration is automatic(except becoming out of status).....at least not without a catch.....:-)
Good luck

Harry

"helenab" <member27862@british_expats.com> wrote

    > Unfortunately NOTHING in US immigration is automatic(except becoming out
    > of status).....at least not without a catch.....:-)
    > Good luck

Thanks for the "good luck" but not true. I was a citizen automatically. I
was told that by the Agent, in fact, two agents and a Congressional rep -
what you do NOT get automatically is an official document (child) that is
now optional (but still asked for and may be asked for later like in Motor
Vehicles). All I want now is my passport to get my driver's license. If I
get it, I will handle the getting a document for my citizenship issue at a
later date.

Read the 2001 law (I believe) this was similiar to my period.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...er_first_match

(Hopefully that link will stay together)

Here is what it says:

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part II > Sec. 1431. Prev | Next
Sec. 1431. -

Children born outside the United States and residing permanently in the
United States; conditions under which citizenship automatically<----------
acquired

(a)
A child born outside of the United States automatically<------ becomes a
citizen of the United States when all of the following conditions have been
fulfilled:
(1)
At least one parent of the child is a citizen of the United States, whether
by birth or naturalization.
(2)
The child is under the age of eighteen years.
(3)
The child is residing in the United States in the legal and physical custody
of the citizen parent pursuant to a lawful admission for permanent
residence.
(b)
Subsection (a) of this section shall apply to a child adopted by a United
States citizen parent if the child satisfies the requirements applicable to
adopted children under section 1101(b)(1) of this title

Harry

helenab

Sure, you became a citizen automatically, but you're having problems because you don't have a paper to prove it..........see, everything isn't automatic!

Matrix

"helenab" <member27862@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    > > "helenab" <member27862@british_expats.com> wrote
    > >
    > > > Unfortunately NOTHING in US immigration is automatic(except becoming
    > > > out
    > > > of status).....at least not without a catch.....:-)
    > > > Good luck
    > >
    > > Thanks for the "good luck" but not true. I was a citizen automaticall-
    > > y. I
    > > was told that by the Agent, in fact, two agents and a Congressional
    > > rep -
    > > what you do NOT get automatically is an official document (child) that
    > > is
    > > now optional (but still asked for and may be asked for later like in
    > > Motor
    > > Vehicles). All I want now is my passport to get my driver's license.
    > > If I
    > > get it, I will handle the getting a document for my citizenship issue
    > > at a
    > > later date.
    > >
    > > Read the 2001 law (I believe) this was similiar to my period.
    > >
    > > http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/...EMMER=en&WORD-
    > > S=automat+&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&URL=/uscode/8/1431.html#muscat_highligh-
    > > ter_first_match
    > >
    > > (Hopefully that link will stay together)
    > >
    > > Here is what it says:
    > >
    > > TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER III > Part II > Sec. 1431. Prev |
    > > Next
    > > Sec. 1431. -
    > >
    > > Children born outside the United States and residing permanently in
    > > the
    > > United States; conditions under which citizenship automatically<------
    > > -----
    > > acquired
    > >
    > > (a)
    > > A child born outside of the United States automatically<------ bec-
    > > omes a
    > > citizen of the United States when all of the following conditions
    > > have been
    > > fulfilled:
    > > (1)
    > > At least one parent of the child is a citizen of the United States,
    > > whether
    > > by birth or naturalization.
    > > (2)
    > > The child is under the age of eighteen years.
    > > (3)
    > > The child is residing in the United States in the legal and physic-
    > > al custody
    > > of the citizen parent pursuant to a lawful admission for permanent
    > > residence.
    > > (b)
    > > Subsection (a) of this section shall apply to a child adopted by a
    > > United
    > > States citizen parent if the child satisfies the requirements appl-
    > > icable to
    > > adopted children under section 1101(b)(1) of this title
    > >
    > > Harry
    > Sure, you became a citizen automatically, but you're having problems be-
    > cause you don't have a paper to prove it..........see, everything isn't
    > automatic!

That is true with anything else--you may have been born in the US but if you
don't have proof of that fact then you would have the same problem as well!
Something is really being missed in this discussion, I think. Claims of
citizenship require credible documentary proof. Even the fact that something
may be automatic needs to be proven and the law still requires that the
applicant for a benefit has the burden of proof!

Harry

"matrix" <[email protected]> wrote

    > That is true with anything else--you may have been born in the US but if
you
    > don't have proof of that fact then you would have the same problem as
well!

In motor vehicle agencies not so bad a problem if you are born in the US
they have a toll free number to help look for the records and may be a lot
easier. I was given the number by mistake by a person who thought it covered
my issue too. It may be a lot quicker to replace a birth certificate that go
through the INS (INS refers to whatever they call themself now).

    > Something is really being missed in this discussion, I think.

Not on my end describing the problem and why - some posted recommendations
here have been very helpful especially when I first posted. Further speaking
on the phone for over an hour to a Congressional aid/employee, I know the
problem perfectly - not quite the solution yet - I will start with the
passport application in a fast expedite mode.

    > Claims of citizenship require credible documentary proof. Even the fact
that something
    > may be automatic needs to be proven and the law still requires that the
    > applicant for a benefit has the burden of proof!

Correct. And THAT is why I have both original documents (or had them, the
passport people have them now) of my parents Naturalization papers and can
prove who I am.

The problem is, the employees of, for example, a motor vehicle agency are
not allowed to make *judgment* calls but go line by line of existing
documents required according to recent law. If you do not have the actual
document, you cannot prove that your *could* or are *entitled* to the
document THEY want the actual paper with no cerebral activity.

No new law is perfect and gets amended, perhaps there will be a time with
motor vehicle agencies, (considering Congressional offices are spending a
lot of time on my type of problem - got that from the horse's mouth) that
one can present conclusive evidence of proof of citizenship instead of a
specific document that might be appealed to a higher director or court or
motor vehicle official, NOT to interfere with the person's olivewood.
Who knows.

One has to take their documents to those who can *make a judgment call* like
the INS or perhaps the Passport people. The problem with the INS via
driver's license issues to get further citizenship related documents is that
it takes too long for them to make the call - perhaps a year where one will
be out of work for a year not being able to drive to work. Otherwise, my
problem would probably be a cakewalk.

Harry

Monsieur Bah-Oui

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I just found this group. Perhaps someone has a suggestion.
    >
    > I came to the USA as a 6 year old from England in 1957. 5 years later my
    > parents were naturalized. I was about 11 or 12 then and I was told that my
    > citizenship was "automatic".
    >
    > Unfortunately, today I cannot renew my driver's license because my birth
    > certificate says the UK. Even presenting my parents' Naturalization papers
    > (both now deceased) I was told I needed something to prove my residency.
    >
    > One person at the Motor Vehicle Agency told me I need a "green card". All
    > this seems ridiculous to me having going to USA schools since Kindergarten.
    >
    > I am also trying to find my child British passport from 1957 to see if it
    > has an "A number" that the Immigration department told me I need.
    >
    > I really only want to get my driver's license renewed and would like to
    > worry about papers at a later dater perhaps when I get a passport.
    >
    > A couple of questions: What is the fastest way to get something on paper so
    > I can renew my license?
    >
    >
    > The Immigration department on the phone said, "you are a citizen but you
    > have no documents saying that." Now it seems to me, proving with various
    > other documents of who I am, and then presenting my parents Naturalization
    > papers, that should be enough but it isn't.
    >
    > Second, if somehow I manage to get my driver's license renewed without the
    > INS papers like a 'green card' and want a passport later, could I use my
    > British birth certificate to get a British passport.
    >
    > This all seems so absurd. I even asked, "am I allowed to vote in November?"
    > and was told by the INS (or whatever name they have now) "yes, you ARE a
    > citizen but just don't have the papers."
    >
    > I notice too the one form costs like 240 dollars to submit claiming
    > citizenship. One person in INS suggested I do a "freedom of information Act"
    > search through the INS for my "A" number. Is that on my child passport, if I
    > can find it?
    >
    > Unless you can get an "agent" on the phone the people answering the phones
    > seem very Unknowledgeable on the law.
    >
    > Thanks for any reply.
    >
    > Harry

You sir, are an idiot!

Ray

People can't say that you have absolutely nothing!
After all, you have inferiority.

Alun

"Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > "matrix" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    >> That is true with anything else--you may have been born in the US but
    >> if you don't have proof of that fact then you would have the same
    >> problem as well!
    >
    > In motor vehicle agencies not so bad a problem if you are born in the
    > US they have a toll free number to help look for the records and may be
    > a lot easier. I was given the number by mistake by a person who thought
    > it covered my issue too. It may be a lot quicker to replace a birth
    > certificate that go through the INS (INS refers to whatever they call
    > themself now).
    >
    >> Something is really being missed in this discussion, I think.
    >
    > Not on my end describing the problem and why - some posted
    > recommendations here have been very helpful especially when I first
    > posted. Further speaking on the phone for over an hour to a
    > Congressional aid/employee, I know the problem perfectly - not quite
    > the solution yet - I will start with the passport application in a fast
    > expedite mode.
    >
    >> Claims of citizenship require credible documentary proof. Even the
    >> fact that something may be automatic needs to be proven and the law
    >> still requires that the applicant for a benefit has the burden of
    >> proof!
    >
    > Correct. And THAT is why I have both original documents (or had them,
    > the passport people have them now) of my parents Naturalization papers
    > and can prove who I am.
    >
    > The problem is, the employees of, for example, a motor vehicle agency
    > are not allowed to make *judgment* calls but go line by line of
    > existing documents required according to recent law. If you do not have
    > the actual document, you cannot prove that your *could* or are
    > *entitled* to the document THEY want the actual paper with no cerebral
    > activity.
    >
    > No new law is perfect and gets amended, perhaps there will be a time
    > with motor vehicle agencies, (considering Congressional offices are
    > spending a lot of time on my type of problem - got that from the
    > horse's mouth) that one can present conclusive evidence of proof of
    > citizenship instead of a specific document that might be appealed to a
    > higher director or court or motor vehicle official, NOT to interfere
    > with the person's olivewood. Who knows.
    >
    > One has to take their documents to those who can *make a judgment call*
    > like the INS or perhaps the Passport people. The problem with the INS
    > via driver's license issues to get further citizenship related
    > documents is that it takes too long for them to make the call - perhaps
    > a year where one will be out of work for a year not being able to drive
    > to work. Otherwise, my problem would probably be a cakewalk.
    >
    > Harry
    >
    >
    >

I sympathise. I am here on a green card, but I waited the maximum
permissible time before getting a Maryland driving licence. Then the MVA
(Motor Vehicle Administration) told me I couldn't get a licence with an H-1
visa unless I also had an I-94 (landing card). At the time, my adjustment
of status (AOS) to get my green card was pending, and so the INS had my I-
94, just as they should have had. I could have got a substitute I-94 from
the INS, but by then I would have been driving illegally.

I told the MVA clerk that I had to drive to work every day and I would be
driving whether I had a licence or not, and asked them whether they would
like to be able to keep track of me? Miraculously, they caved in. I am
fairly sure the clerk was wrong about needing an I-94, as the rules just
say something about proving legal immigration status, and an unexpired visa
proves that. Sometimes 'playing hardball' works. I suspect that if they
hadn't let me take the test, another location might have, although I too
might have given up after trying three!

The principle problem in all this is that the motor vehicle people know
practically nothing about immigration, and make weird and arbitrary
judgements based on their own fanciful notions. I don't think the problem
will go away anytime soon.

There are still some states that don't have immigration rules for getting a
licence. Maybe a good 'end run' around all this ineptitude is to get a
licence from one such state and pretend that you have just moved from
there. I reckon a lot of motor vehicle clerks would exchange it without a
moment's thought.

Dieu Tout Puissant

Ray <member9793@british_expats.com> wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
    > > "Harry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]
    > > upernews.com>...
    > > > Hi,
    > > >
    > > > I just found this group. Perhaps someone has a suggestion.
    > > >
    > > > I came to the USA as a 6 year old from England in 1957. 5 years lat-
    > > > er my
    > > > parents were naturalized. I was about 11 or 12 then and I was told
    > > > that my
    > > > citizenship was "automatic".
    > > >
    > > > Unfortunately, today I cannot renew my driver's license because my
    > > > birth
    > > > certificate says the UK. Even presenting my parents' Naturalization
    > > > papers
    > > > (both now deceased) I was told I needed something to prove my resi-
    > > > dency.
    > > >
    > > > One person at the Motor Vehicle Agency told me I need a "green card-
    > > > ". All
    > > > this seems ridiculous to me having going to USA schools since Kinde-
    > > > rgarten.
    > > >
    > > > I am also trying to find my child British passport from 1957 to see
    > > > if it
    > > > has an "A number" that the Immigration department told me I need.
    > > >
    > > > I really only want to get my driver's license renewed and would like
    > > > to
    > > > worry about papers at a later dater perhaps when I get a passport.
    > > >
    > > > A couple of questions: What is the fastest way to get something on
    > > > paper so
    > > > I can renew my license?
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > The Immigration department on the phone said, "you are a citizen but
    > > > you
    > > > have no documents saying that." Now it seems to me, proving with va-
    > > > rious
    > > > other documents of who I am, and then presenting my parents Natural-
    > > > ization
    > > > papers, that should be enough but it isn't.
    > > >
    > > > Second, if somehow I manage to get my driver's license renewed with-
    > > > out the
    > > > INS papers like a 'green card' and want a passport later, could I
    > > > use my
    > > > British birth certificate to get a British passport.
    > > >
    > > > This all seems so absurd. I even asked, "am I allowed to vote in No-
    > > > vember?"
    > > > and was told by the INS (or whatever name they have now) "yes, you
    > > > ARE a
    > > > citizen but just don't have the papers."
    > > >
    > > > I notice too the one form costs like 240 dollars to submit claiming
    > > > citizenship. One person in INS suggested I do a "freedom of informa-
    > > > tion Act"
    > > > search through the INS for my "A" number. Is that on my child passp-
    > > > ort, if I
    > > > can find it?
    > > >
    > > > Unless you can get an "agent" on the phone the people answering the
    > > > phones
    > > > seem very Unknowledgeable on the law.
    > > >
    > > > Thanks for any reply.
    > > >
    > > > Harry
    > >
    > > You sir, are an idiot!
    >
    > People can't say that you have absolutely nothing!
    > After all, you have inferiority.

va chier

Harry

"Ray" <member9793@british_expats.com> wrote

> You sir, are an idiot!
    > People can't say that you have absolutely nothing!
    > After all, you have inferiority.

Ray, . . .go **** yourself. <---------

I have read your drivel here and have opened a couple of your smartass posts
to various people.

At least once you wrote something worth reading, describing yourself, after
I read a couple posts of your drivel.

"A sharp tongue is no indication of a keen mind."

See, you can say something intelligent when you quote someone else,
otherwise maybe you should just shut the **** up. (unless you can come up
with more useful quotes)

Hey, you want to start flaming pal - knock yourself out.

Harry

Ray

Hi Harry.. perhaps you cannot read too well
It was Monsieur Bah-Oui...who said "You sir, are an idiot!... my remarks were aimed at his intolerant and ridiculous comment... I was on your side!!
An apology is acceptable..!!!

You may care to read it at http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...=250289&page=4
you will see you mistake ...

crg

An unexpired visa does not prove legal status. For example if you showed them an unexpired 10 year B1/B2 visa and no I-94 that doesn't mean you can stay in the US for 10 years. the I-94 shows how long someone is in legal status.

Harry

"Ray" <member9793@british_expats.com> wrote

    > Hi Harry.. perhaps you cannot read too well

My newsgroup did not get the original flame post, sorry, it appeared in your
remarks without reference.

    > It was Monsieur Bah-Oui...who said "You sir, are an idiot!... my remar-
    > ks were aimed at his intolerant and ridiculous comment... I was on your
    > side!!
    > An apology is acceptable..!!!

And yes,

****I apologize. *****

Like I said, I did not get the original but was in your post with no
reference above the remark. But I did read a couple of others from this
clown equally as rude and inflammatory that made it to my newsgroup to a
couple of posters. While I am reading this group I will just filter the
ignorant son of a bitch to myself and others. Plonk!!!

Harry

Harry

    > Hi Harry.. perhaps you cannot read too well
    > It was Monsieur Bah-Oui...who said

By the way, he is impersonating a Frenchman. He/she is posting from
Panix.com a New York based co. I ran a trace.

Harry

Joachim Feise

Ray wrote:
    > It was Monsieur Bah-Oui...who said "You sir, are an idiot!... my remar-
    > ks were aimed at his intolerant and ridiculous comment... I was on your
    > side!!

Well, Ray, you quoted it in a way that was easy to misinterpret...
In particular, the first line of a post usually states who you quote from.
That line was missing in your post, and to a casual observer it may have
looked as if you were quoting Harry.
Even I scrolled back to the top of the post to make sense of your comment
;-)

-Joe